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QF Q400 Crew Forget Landing Gear

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QF Q400 Crew Forget Landing Gear

Old 1st Apr 2022, 22:29
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Like 'demonstrated crosswind limit' you mean?
Chronic Snoozer is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2022, 23:58
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Spot on, CS.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 01:08
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
This thread encapsulates everything that’s wrong with aviation in Oz. For the love of god, everyone of us has done something dumb at some point in our careers. It’s not a case of if but when. Someone left the gear down, were told about it and put the gear up. Yet here we are with a two page thread and ensuing debate about it.
Some one left the gear down in the rain! Sounds like a line out MacArthurs Park.

well its not so simple as " they left it down- were told about it and then they put it up"
The debate is what were the factors that allowed them to get to 15000+ft. From lift off and the not hearing or not calling positive rate, the after takeoff checklist, the extra vibration and noise, the fact that three green lights were illuminated when normally the would not be and the fact that a lever that normally points to the roof was pointing at the floor.
we all cock up - we got to to learn from it.
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Old 2nd Apr 2022, 02:51
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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The event also happened around the time Sydney was going into lock down again with the threat of more stand downs. That on top of reduced flying all year, no wonder crew like this made mistakes during 2021.
VH-FTS is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2022, 08:27
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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There are 2 categories of pilots:

1. those who criticise the errors of others; and
2. those who think “that could be me tomorrow”, and continually strive to learn and improve.

I occasionally fall into category 1. When I do, I try to recognise it and push myself into category 2. I know I’m not perfect. I thought I was, once, but it turned out I was mistaken.

Which category do each of you fall into?
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Old 2nd Apr 2022, 08:31
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
There are 2 categories of pilots:

1. those who criticise the errors of others; and
2. those who think “that could be me tomorrow”, and continually strive to learn and improve.

I occasionally fall into category 1. When I do, I try to recognise it and push myself into category 2. I know I’m not perfect. I thought I was, once, but it turned out I was mistaken.

Which category do each of you fall into?
Probably one of the best posts I've seen on here for a while.
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Old 3rd Apr 2022, 00:37
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, well said Derfred…
No Idea Either is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2022, 01:22
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I know I’m not perfect. I thought I was, once, but it turned out I was mistaken.

Which category do each of you fall into?
Far, far from perfect Derfred, could fill a book on errors made. Once had a CP who acknowledged he made a mistake once, that was when he thought he made a mistake. Was of a demeanor where you weren't sure if he was joking or not.
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Old 3rd Apr 2022, 08:07
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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It's all very well for pilots on here to be reminding themselves of how fallible they might be: 'There but for the grace of God go I'... etc. But the famed (and perhaps overstated) Qantas reputation for safety is on a knife-edge here. The challenges visited by COVID on flight crew recency-of-experience notwithstanding, operational checklists have to stand for something, and if the SLF cannot rely on our storied Qantas aircrew to treat checklists seriously, then who can they have confidence in? This small lapse (made less small by the fact that the mistake got past not one pilot, but both) amounts to a frightening derangement of process and a diminution of the general view (whatever it might be) of QF flight crew competence. Deserves to be stated.
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Old 4th Apr 2022, 13:13
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Down and Welded View Post
It's all very well for pilots on here to be reminding themselves of how fallible they might be: 'There but for the grace of God go I'... etc. But the famed (and perhaps overstated) Qantas reputation for safety is on a knife-edge here. The challenges visited by COVID on flight crew recency-of-experience notwithstanding, operational checklists have to stand for something, and if the SLF cannot rely on our storied Qantas aircrew to treat checklists seriously, then who can they have confidence in? This small lapse (made less small by the fact that the mistake got past not one pilot, but both) amounts to a frightening derangement of process and a diminution of the general view (whatever it might be) of QF flight crew competence. Deserves to be stated.
I agree with your post except for these last 2 bits:

a frightening derangement of process
- an error got through a few slices of swiss cheese. That probably happens more often than most realise in all professional safety-critical outfits, not just aviation. We have learned to learn from these mistakes rather than criticise (e.g. Threat and Error management training). The organisation will learn from the final ATSB report (when it comes), and in the meantime, pilots who recognise that “it could happen to me tomorrow” stay on their toes and reinvigorate their defences.

- so I disagree with your language of “a frightening derangement of process” - unless you are trying to get a sound-bite in the media, this is a gross overstatement of the risk matrix. A far more “frightening derangement of process” was the contributing factors leading to the A330 departing with pitot covers, for example.

a diminution of the general view (whatever it might be) of QF flight crew competence
- well yes, any publicity of an aviation screw-up diminishes the general view, and of course tall-poppy syndrome makes Qantas (including it’s wholly owned but independently operated subsidiaries) particularly susceptible. Rain Man was awesome PR for Qantas, but also created a rod for their back with increased public scrutiny of any stuff-ups.

- Joe Public probably won’t get too excited if “a Qantas pilot forgot to put the wheels up”. It’s not the main news story of the day. The aircraft stayed safely away from Primary Schools and Orphanages.

If genuine risks to aviation safety in Australia are to be discussed, I would suggest directing attention to the real threats, such as fatigue management, bean-counters running ATC (Ballina), bean-counters running airlines (all of them, and including cost pressures on pilot training, engineering, aircraft purchasing, and outsourcing everything), bean counters running manufacturing (Boeing), self-funded “cadet” schemes, cheap pilot labour (to avoid costly training) via “critical work shortage visas” for pilots, and the general plummeting work conditions and pay for pilots in general.

A Q400 missing “gear up”, and the checklist supposed to catch it (if that’s what happened) is not insignificant, and I look forward to learning from the report in 3 or 4 years’ time (there’s another problem right there!). But let’s keep things in perspective. And more importantly, let’s focus on the fix rather than the criticism, particularly before anyone knows what really happened.

Drawing general conclusions about the state of the industry (or a company) from one event like this is not likely to be accurate nor helpful.
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Old 4th Apr 2022, 21:46
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Down and Welded View Post
…...The challenges visited by COVID on flight crew recency-of-experience notwithstanding, operational checklists have to stand for something, and if the SLF cannot rely on our storied Qantas aircrew to treat checklists seriously, then who can they have confidence in?
One crew on one aircraft overlooked a checklist item; hardly a reason to lose confidence in the entire crew cohort of Qantas or any other airline that has an ATSB report published about a single, relatively non-critical omission. Not ideal but airlines like Qantas and the manufacturers of the aircraft have numerous lines of defence to cover omissions, ramping up as the error becomes more critical.

Most reputable airlines are ensuring that crew returning from long Covid induced lay-offs are trained to the pre-Covid standard, albeit with unavoidably less recent line operational experience.
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Old 4th Apr 2022, 23:21
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
I agree with your post except for these last 2 bits:


- an error got through a few slices of swiss cheese. That probably happens more often than most realise in all professional safety-critical outfits, not just aviation. We have learned to learn from these mistakes rather than criticise (e.g. Threat and Error management training). The organisation will learn from the final ATSB report (when it comes), and in the meantime, pilots who recognise that “it could happen to me tomorrow” stay on their toes and reinvigorate their defences.

- so I disagree with your language of “a frightening derangement of process” - unless you are trying to get a sound-bite in the media, this is a gross overstatement of the risk matrix. A far more “frightening derangement of process” was the contributing factors leading to the A330 departing with pitot covers, for example.


- well yes, any publicity of an aviation screw-up diminishes the general view, and of course tall-poppy syndrome makes Qantas (including it’s wholly owned but independently operated subsidiaries) particularly susceptible. Rain Man was awesome PR for Qantas, but also created a rod for their back with increased public scrutiny of any stuff-ups.

- Joe Public probably won’t get too excited if “a Qantas pilot forgot to put the wheels up”. It’s not the main news story of the day. The aircraft stayed safely away from Primary Schools and Orphanages.

If genuine risks to aviation safety in Australia are to be discussed, I would suggest directing attention to the real threats, such as fatigue management, bean-counters running ATC (Ballina), bean-counters running airlines (all of them, and including cost pressures on pilot training, engineering, aircraft purchasing, and outsourcing everything), bean counters running manufacturing (Boeing), self-funded “cadet” schemes, cheap pilot labour (to avoid costly training) via “critical work shortage visas” for pilots, and the general plummeting work conditions and pay for pilots in general.

A Q400 missing “gear up”, and the checklist supposed to catch it (if that’s what happened) is not insignificant, and I look forward to learning from the report in 3 or 4 years’ time (there’s another problem right there!). But let’s keep things in perspective. And more importantly, let’s focus on the fix rather than the criticism, particularly before anyone knows what really happened.

Drawing general conclusions about the state of the industry (or a company) from one event like this is not likely to be accurate nor helpful.
I can tell you a very thorough internal investigation was completed far quicker than that and some solid learnings came out of it.

As with most incidences in aviation the incident was multifactorial.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 00:06
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Expect more of this in the future... Airbus have removed Gear Up from the checklist. Rationale is that there is an VLE overspeed alert and increased fuel consumption.

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Old 5th Apr 2022, 03:39
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by compressor stall View Post
Airbus have removed Gear Up from the checklist. .
Actually at my company, they have removed the "After T/O Climb Checklist". it is now just a PM scan.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 03:42
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Actually at my company, they have removed the "After T/O Climb Checklist". it is now just a PM scan.
So has the company’s fuel bill increased?
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 03:46
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
So has the company’s fuel bill increased?
That right there is funny. Thanks for the belly laugh, CS!
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 06:28
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Actually at my company, they have removed the "After T/O Climb Checklist". it is now just a PM scan.
...and probably more safe because of it. Checklists are no insurance and in fact, if overdone, an embuggerance.
Back in my days as a trainer I would notice some pilots rattling off checklist responses without really checking. To confirm my suspicion, I would challenge with the before landing checklist at the after take-off stage, or before take-off checklist on final approach. Plenty of suckers would give responses to the checklist being read, not the one actually executed - to earn themselves a tick in the 'below average' box for 'situational awareness' on the training form for the day.

A very long time ago I did a Type Rating on the MU2 with a European operator. This is a complex aeroplane and was being flown single pilot in a demanding environment. Their checklist policy was to use it up until engine start, then again after shutdown. Everything in between was done by methodical scanning, the philosophy being that head-down reading to one-self was not as effective as keeping eyes and ears open, minding the store.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 11:27
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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That's exactly why Airbus did it. In the name of safety. The basic philosophy is that the only things on the checklist are things that will kill or hurt you or the aircraft. They are trying to reengage the pilot with the aircraft by forcing them to think about their actions. There was a lot of operator pushback pre roll out (some certain corners of the planet more than others apparently) but the new changes eventually rolled out a few months ago.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 11:45
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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The reality is in this day and age checklists on new airliners should be very minimal. However manufacturers do not innovate and are obsessed with common type ratings and that includes the Dash 8-400. Hence the need for long and persistent checklist as the pilot has to make up for the lack of technology.
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Old 5th Apr 2022, 17:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I have done many stupid things or forgotten things in my career. We once flew Toulouse to Heathrow with the APU running. It was only when the other pilot went to the loo, and I did a casual cockpit scan - an hour+ into the flight - when I noticed the APU was still running ! Ooopps !

Hence checklists.

But they must be taken seriously. A couple of times at my ATPL flight school, I witnessed instructors in piston twins landing with the gear up, which bent the props and all sorts. I now have a personal checklist when on very short finals, when I say under my breath "Fly. By. Wire":

F = Flaps set?
B = Brakes: Auto brake selected and no residual pressure?
W = Wheels down and locked?

The key is to use checklists properly; They are not there to be gotten out of the way as quickly as possible, they are there to check stuff and prevent death. For example, I deliberately do my (Airbus) control checks in a different order to the book, because it is too easy to give the expected vocal response rather than actually looking properly at the flight control page and stating what is seen. More than once I have been holding full right, when the response has been "full left". My response is "Are you sure?".
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