Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Downfall, Netflix documentary

Old 19th Feb 2022, 03:25
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kichin
Posts: 651
Downfall, Netflix documentary

For those who have Netflix and find crash investigations interesting, I can highly recommend “Downfall, The Case Against Boeing”. It’s a very good look at what happens when a massive aviation company who talks the safety talk finally gets caught out.

Shocking how willing this company was to lie about known safety issues even after killing hundreds of people. All in the name of profits and saving face.

Not pointing any fingers but it should really serve as a warning to any companies who operate in a similar way here in Oz. Safety is never a product of your past record but rather a product of your present ethics.
gordonfvckingramsay is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 04:37
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Under the sea
Posts: 493
Pay the $2.5 billion fine for fraud and conspiracy and the company is NOT GUILTY. Questions?
extreme P is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 07:04
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 1,176
Just watched it, it is astounding that Boeing have got away with this. I guess money talks.
Ollie Onion is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 09:32
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Hot zone
Posts: 224
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.
Maisk Rotum is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 10:18
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 284
I have not flown the 737 ...
But lets do what you say.
The system kicks in and trims the aircraft, lets say, 8 or 10 degrees Nose Down, before you react by acting on those 2 switches.
Now you have an aircraft trimmed 8 or 10 degrees Nose Down, and, to the best of my knowledge, you can not trim Nose Up because those switches are Off.
Do you think that you are going to get out of it ?
zerograv is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 11:01
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Hot zone
Posts: 224
Yes. I would do the memory items for Runaway Stab and then fly the aircraft manually. There is no way if you had been trained properly on the aircraft, if you were armed with MCAS knowledge as the ET crew were, if you could fly a jet with pitch and power, if you valued your life, you would not have immediately hit the the Stab Trim switches or asked your colleague to do it the second the thing was trimming away from your desired state. Read the report and tell me how long it took ET to put the Stab Trim switches to cutout and how many cycles of MCAS nose down they had before the FO, yes FO, suggested to the Capt to put them to cutout. Yes they had simultaneous stall and overspeed warnings but Boeing didn't invent the Unreliable Airspeed memory items after these crashes. Keep in mind both aircraft were in daylight VMC. They could see their horizon. Boeing took short cuts for sure to keep their competitor from gaining an edge on them. They assumed pilots were more capable and that's their gross miscalculation.
Maisk Rotum is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 11:05
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NT
Posts: 197
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.
apparently Boeing internal comms suggested that you had as little as 10 seconds to flick those switches to prevent an unrecoverable scenario.
And that was discussed internally pre Ethiopian. As for the whole MCAS tied to a single AoA vane, well fck me, words can’t describe how insane that is
chookcooker is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 11:42
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Sunshine Coast
Posts: 742
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
... Read the report and tell me how long it took ET to put the Stab Trim switches to cutout and how many cycles of MCAS nose down they had before the FO, yes FO, suggested to the Capt to put them to cutout. ...
About 35 seconds and two MCAS AND trim events.
MickG0105 is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 16:17
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: netherlands
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by zerograv View Post
I have not flown the 737 ...
But lets do what you say.
The system kicks in and trims the aircraft, lets say, 8 or 10 degrees Nose Down, before you react by acting on those 2 switches.
Now you have an aircraft trimmed 8 or 10 degrees Nose Down, and, to the best of my knowledge, you can not trim Nose Up because those switches are Off.
Do you think that you are going to get out of it ?
you can still trim manually via the big trimwheels. However, if the trim is out by a lot, the forces will be too high and the crew is unable to overcome it. So you would have to be pretty quick in using the cutout switches.

Last edited by sleeper; 19th Feb 2022 at 16:18. Reason: Grammatical
sleeper is online now  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 18:38
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: BBN
Posts: 808
Has this max been aircraft had the required changes to ensure this type of event will not happen again? There is a few flying around now.
SHVC is online now  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 18:55
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 2,254
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.
Mate, you’re kidding aren’t you!
KRUSTY 34 is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 20:15
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Airborne
Age: 61
Posts: 33
The best players and coaches are always the spectators in the stands.
dingy737 is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 20:23
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 284
Originally Posted by sleeper View Post
you can still trim manually via the big trimwheels. However, if the trim is out by a lot, the forces will be too high and the crew is unable to overcome it. So you would have to be pretty quick in using the cutout switches.
Thanks for your input !

Very likely this detail has been discussed before, but what is the reason that causes Boeing to be so afraid that the Max gets into a stall situation, to the point that they came up with MCAS ?
Goes into something similar to a super stall situation, that is impossible to get out of it, or is it something else ?
It's been a very long time since I last studied stability
zerograv is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 21:07
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kichin
Posts: 651
Technical discussions aside. How is it that a company can go from a beleaguered cash strapped airplane maker who had to hide certain elements of its design from the FAA in order to avoid new type rating status, to one who can afford to pay a multi billion dollar fine in order to avoid criminal charges? And remain in business? Let us not forget the guy who was at the helm, the captain of the company you could say, got a golden handshake in return for overseeing the culpable homicide of a few hundred people. Corporate filth masquerading as leaders pedalling profits disguised as safety, I’m glad we are above all that down under.

Last edited by gordonfvckingramsay; 19th Feb 2022 at 21:20.
gordonfvckingramsay is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 22:55
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 105
I just watched it yesterday, sums up everything that is wrong with aviation today, in fact probably most industry. Well worth a watch.
TinFoilhat2 is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2022, 23:46
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Blighty
Posts: 420
Originally Posted by zerograv View Post
Thanks for your input !

Very likely this detail has been discussed before, but what is the reason that causes Boeing to be so afraid that the Max gets into a stall situation, to the point that they came up with MCAS ?
Goes into something similar to a super stall situation, that is impossible to get out of it, or is it something else ?
It's been a very long time since I last studied stability
Southwest Airlines wanted the aircraft to handle almost exactly the same way as the 737NG with minimal traning for crew. It didn't due to the size and position of the engines, so MCAS was introduced to make it fly like the NG. In theory.
HOVIS is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2022, 00:17
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SAUDI
Posts: 394
A little bit surprised at those that are astounded by the corruption involved in big bucks. Always has been. What is the saying, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Money makes power.
finestkind is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2022, 00:31
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.
Sigh… you clearly have no idea about airworthiness. Although I would agree that Boeing is not the only party at fault. The FAA also failed as the regulator to ensure that this aircraft type was airworthy. That’s their job, it’s why they issue a certificate.

It’s one thing doing memory items in a simulator, when you are expecting things to go wrong, but it’s quite different in the actual aircraft. If you have had a serious system failure for real then you will know what I am talking about. A failure situation that starts off with a stick shacker, altitude and speed disagreements with master cautions, does not immediately shout out trim failure, unless of course, you’ve seen it in the simulator before hand, along with what will happens to the aircraft if you don’t catch it in time and how you might dig yourself out of that hole.

A critical component of the flight control system that can quickly trim the aircraft full nose down, taking its input from only one sensor?? Seriously mate, have a word with yourself. As far as I’m concerned, Boeings once incredible reputation for safety and reliability will never be the same again, especially with the amount of BS they have spouted since the accidents.

As for the FAA, they should have led the groundings of this Frankenstein aircraft. Instead it was the Chinese CAAC, then even when almost every other civil aviation authority had grounded them, the FAA were still kissing Boeings backside.

in most accidents there is usually something the pilots could have done to avert the disaster, yet fortunately we have come a long way from just simply blaming the aircrew. Instead, quite rightly, we look at the system as a whole, including the design, certification, regulation, training and operation of the aircraft. There is no blame here that can or should be directed at the pilots.
m0nkfish is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2022, 01:32
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.
Runaway Stab training only entered the syllabus after these events.
No one is immune to startle factor. Even heros - both real heros and PPRuNe heros!

System design must not rely on an ace response in 10 seconds.
LTBC is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2022, 01:53
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 1,176
Originally Posted by Maisk Rotum View Post
Here we go again. For those that haven't flown the 737 there are two switches to turn off if the stab moves in an unintended way. They are turned off as a 'Memory Item'. The Lion crew never turned them off and the Ethiopian crew turned them off after the aircraft was so out of trim it was impossible to fly and then turned them back on again!!! Boeing is not entirely to blame for these two accidents but is certainly not blameless.

You are entirely missing the point, this is not about those two specific accidents. It is about a company culture where the internal communications showed:

- They deliberately downplayed and hid information about MCAS so that it didn't trigger any additional training for customers.
- They penalised financially any employee who put in writing any safety concerns about ANY aircraft programme or quality issues
- They determined that they had made the MCAS response so powerful with it related to a single source of information that crew would have 10 seconds to respond appropriately or face a catastrophic loss of the aircraft.
- They knew should they release internal documents about the design of MCAS it would lead to a grounding of the fleet so they didn't release them.
- They knew the design was likely the main contributing factor in the loss of lives but once again internal emails show them openly discussing that they should just pin it on the pilots as most will believe that since they weren't American pilots they acted badly.
- Should ANY aircraft with a system design that can lead to loss of the aircraft in 10 seconds be certified?
Ollie Onion is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.