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Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

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Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

Old 27th Jan 2022, 23:24
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting to also note that the Union Flag/Jack is not the official flag of the UK, it's has just come to represent it by its widespread use in the Navy. So now by default everyone regards it as the flag of the UK and England as it was a regular sight on any British warship, and British warships were everywhere at one point. England has it's own national flag separate to the Union Flag. The only law that was decreed was that non British navy ships could not display any flag or pennant regularly used by the navy, which included the "Jack".

Just to be brutally technical the Union Jack only represents the nations of England, Scotland and the whole of Ireland. Northern Ireland and Wales have no representation on that flag. They are the crosses of St George, a 3rd century Roman Emperor's guard, St Patrick, a 5th century Roman/Irish missionary and St Andrew, a 1st century apostle and fisherman in Judea. Absolutely none of them had anything whatsoever to do with the nation of Australia by the way.
Wales was annexed before national flags were a thing, however the Tudor coat of arms had a set of Welsh Dragons added to signify the event. Unfortunately we all know the Tudor line was discontinued so that link was severed.

Interesting to see the Ryanair lyre shaped lady is very close to the lyre symbol the Protectorate under Cromwell used on their short lived flag, due to the association with the Kingdom of Ireland (the harp flag). So Ryanair is flying both the Irish national flag, next to the rego, and a representation of the old Kingdom of Ireland flag on the tail.

Last edited by 43Inches; 27th Jan 2022 at 23:41.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 23:31
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cravenmorehead View Post
True tail wheel et al, the current flag is the one you have posted. This does not mean we should not investigate a change from an outdated flag one which has represented a time when the indigenous people were treated badly by our forbearers. People associate Qantas with Australia and by putting the Torres Strait and First Nations flag on the aircraft it will make them familiar with the symbol and what it means to them and me a white second generation Australian who is proud of our indigenous people.
Just a thought.
There's really two issues at play in this thread.

One, should airlines paint the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags on aircraft alongside the current National flag, as they were recognised as "Flags of Australia" under the Flags Act by Bill Hayden in 1995? Just like multiple carriers have the EU flag painted alongside their national flag, or the Caribbean Community flag, or other international visible displays of Australia (like the AO tennis) display the Aboriginal and TSI flags alongside the national flag? Or remove all flags from aircraft like Air NZ?

Two, should the current Australian national flag be changed? Really that's a full on debate well beyond the scope of this thread, but I found this video interesting. Whilst aesthetically the new flag design in the video wouldn't be my first choice the creator of the video has some very good points and a thorough knowledge of the symbology and meaning of his design:


One could say a new national flag would negate the desire to display the additional flags on aircraft or at events or businesses.

Last edited by dr dre; 27th Jan 2022 at 23:53.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 23:34
  #83 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
The Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag both have equal status. It would be quite inappropriate to "add the Aboriginal flag" without also adding the Torres Strait Islander flag.
Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 23:49
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My opinion is that the Jack should be removed from the corner and the 7 point star enlarged and its done. The aboriginal flag is a flag for that group of people as with the flag for for the TSI peoples. Those flags should be flown alongside the Australian flag at events etc out of respect but there is no need to go overboard with plating flags all over planes for every group that might be involved.

Removing the Jack gets rid of any historical issues that arise from colonisation/invasion or however you see it. Therefor the flag will then just represent us being in the southern hemisphere, and having seven states as one, surrounded by the blue of the ocean. When you bring heritage and other racial notions into the flag you cause division.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:07
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Seven states as one ? Thatís false advertising.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:16
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On one island. They have never acted as one nation, maybe a short time during ww2. Federation was started by businesses that wanted to get rid of inter-colony taxes, nothing to do with being one people. Business leaders just used the masses to get support for the idea, as usual.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:26
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
On one island. They have never acted as one nation, maybe a short time during ww2. Federation was started by businesses that wanted to get rid of inter-colony taxes, nothing to do with being one people. Business leaders just used the masses to get support for the idea, as usual.
Time might be approaching where we need to think about a bit more cohesion? Maybe a change in head of state will be a good time to have a discussion ?
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:28
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
So what language should we be spoking to each other? English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Scots Gaelic or Welsh?
You missed one, Latin.

Then there is that obscure language only heard to be spoke by farmers to other farmers and nobody else. Deserves a flag all it's own methinks.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:41
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Only the Toffs and Cloth speak Latin. You could throw in hand signals from the mills, where the only hearing protection was to go deaf quickly, then you didn't notice the noise, and whistles language from the shipyards and construction.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:53
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I like the alternate flag in the video that dr dre posted and I think one with the Southern Cross and Aboriginal and Torres Strait flags equally represented.
It is time we became a Republic- although the models proposed are somewhat flawed-and a new flag.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 00:55
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Originally Posted by Mr Proach View Post
Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?
Yes it does.
We prefer nowadays to refer to them as First Nations.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 01:00
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When the Australian flag is flown alongside state flags is it bigger and flown higher than the state flags ?
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 01:03
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Originally Posted by Mr Proach View Post
Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?
Not so far as Torres Strait Islanders are concerned. That's why they have their own flag.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 01:14
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Originally Posted by Torukmacto View Post
When the Australian flag is flown alongside state flags is it bigger and flown higher than the state flags ?
Unless things have changed since I was in the military, I don't think that that is correct. All flags should typically be the same size. The only time that the Australian national flag would be flown higher than state flags is if there is one flag pole that is higher than the others; that is not usually the case. Precedence is usually determined by the position of the flag relative to others rather than the size and height of the flags.

https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-cent...-flags-booklet
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 01:23
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Originally Posted by MickG0105 View Post
Unless things have changed since I was in the military, I don't think that that is correct. All flags should typically be the same size. The only time that the Australian national flag would be flown higher than state flags is if there is one flag pole that is higher than the others; that is not usually the case. Precedence is usually determined by the position of the flag relative to others rather than the size and height of the flags.

https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-cent...-flags-booklet
Thanks , new a military man would respond . Many things to discuss about changes but the national flag should be bigger and higher than all others .
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:24
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Originally Posted by Cravenmorehead View Post
Yes it does.
We prefer nowadays to refer to them as First Nations.
I realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these Ďnationsí? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation?

And isnít this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:37
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post

Removing the Jack gets rid of any historical issues that arise from colonisation/invasion or however you see it.
It also removes a piece of poor symbolism. The Canton, upper left corner, is the part of the flag that is always on top. When a flag hanging off a flag pole is drooping in low wind the Canton will always be in the superior position. Every other part of the flag is in an inferior position.

So rather than representing history or heritage the positioning of the Union Jack in the canton is a direct symbol of UK dominance over the other parts of the flag, including the Commonwealth Star which represents the Australian States and Territories. The Australian national flag directly symbolises the UK being above Australia. Even the Department of the Prime Minister's website states the canton is the position of honour on the flag.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:53
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
It also removes a piece of poor symbolism. The Canton, upper left corner, is the part of the flag that is always on top. When a flag hanging off a flag pole is drooping in low wind the Canton will always be in the superior position. Every other part of the flag is in an inferior position.

So rather than representing history or heritage the positioning of the Union Jack in the canton is a direct symbol of UK dominance over the other parts of the flag, including the Commonwealth Star which represents the Australian States and Territories. The Australian national flag directly symbolises the UK being above Australia. Even the Department of the Prime Minister's website states the canton is the position of honour on the flag.
not wanting to bore you guys and gals but this needs to change !
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:54
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realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these Ďnationsí? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation? And isnít this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?
Don't forget they were not united either. Plenty of groups still don't even get on today.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 02:59
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard View Post
I realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these ‘nations’? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation?

And isn’t this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?
Nation as opposed to nation-state. A nation is a group of people who share common language, culture, traditions. Whereas a nation state includes a central government and defined borders.

First nation people can be used interchangeably with Indigenous people, Native people, First people etc.

So yes, a culture based on a semi nomadic lifestyle (Australian Aborigines moved locations on a cycle), with a system of governance and trade and relations with other groups is considered a nation.

In fact, the first international relations out of Australia, so the first time Australians dealt with those overseas, was not conducted by descendants of the the British settlers post 1788. It was peaceful trade conducted as early as the 16th or 17th centuries between Indigenous Australians in Arnhem Land and Makassans from Sulawesi in now Indonesia, well before Captain Cook had laid eyes on the country. Products traded by indigenous Australians ended up being sold in China, so Australia's tradition of selling stuff to the big country up north has been going on far longer than people realise.

So you could say it's more appropriate for the Australian vessels of trade to carry the symbol of the first Australian traders, rather than a symbol which displays the nation that came here a few hundred years later to do it in second place.

Last edited by dr dre; 28th Jan 2022 at 05:04.
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