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Accused Pilot

Old 26th Nov 2021, 04:47
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
Just hypothesising here, but maybe itís because he would no longer be able to hold an ASIC while the investigation takes place?
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 05:40
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I think it is ludicrous to think that a pilot is not capable of a heinous crime. It may be a noble and respected profession but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a few fruitcakes out there sitting in the left and right hand seat. Andreas Lubitz comes to mind. A complete headcase who committed the unspeakable. Our society is now filled with angry people, road ragers, car park rage, shopping queue rage and who knows, maybe old mate was having a wonderful time camping when Pops and his mistress pulled up to camp right on top of him, complete with an annoying drone. Who knows, time will tell, but it certainly doesn’t look good.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 06:02
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
He is in custody so not able to perform his job.......
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 06:30
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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There would be several reasons it would be legal and appropriate to stand an employee down. Most obvious is safety in regard to the employee being able to do their job adequately while under the high pressure of standing accused, whether guilty or not. Then you have other issues such as what if the accused decides to do something stupid to evade capture at some point, etc...

Now stand down without pay is another issue, I assume that is more what you would debate.

Once you are charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody I assume pay would be suspended until resolved.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 07:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Many would also say that Zaharie Shah of MH370 can be added to the list alongside Lubitz. There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube. Whilst you can have these types of people from any background or profession, it's easy to understand the shock factor of it all. I would argue that generally most killers do fit the "stereotype", however it's easy to name a list of those who don't because those ones naturally get more attention.

I agree with 43Inches. I think an employee in any field would be suspended under the circumstances. On the pay issue, for what it's worth, the Fair Work Act s.524-525 states..
An employer may stand down an employee during a period in which the employee cannot usefully be employed because of a number of circumstances including:
-A stoppage of work for any cause for which the employer cannot reasonably be held responsible.

If an employer stands down an employee during a period in accordance with s.524 of the Fair Work Act then the employer is not required to make payments to the employee for that period.

Section 524 is intended to relieve an employer of the obligation to pay wages to employees who cannot be usefully employed in certain limited circumstances.
However, the EBA may change that, I don't know. I know police who are being investigated are typically suspended with pay.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 07:11
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Stand down aside, group security has absolute discretion to withhold or withdraw ASIC approval. Donít need to be convicted of anything. No ASIC, canít work.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 07:15
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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“absolute discretion”?

So group security can withhold or withdraw an ASIC on the basis that they tossed a coin and it came up ‘heads’ or a person’s middle name starts with a vowel? Not “absolute” methinks.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 08:04
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 08:19
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works
Youíre assuming you have to pass the Qantas psych test to get into Jetstar!
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 08:54
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Absolute discretion - Iíll expand. The head of security who has sign off on all group ASIC may withhold or withdraw an ASIC based on evidence indicating the applicant or holder is not suitable, including hearsay or evidence that is otherwise not admissible in a Court. If an allegation is made against an employee and the boss believes it, ASIC can be withdrawn and no right of appeal.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 09:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding is that's not the case, while the ASIC issuer has the right to revoke access, it has to be reasonable as it's affecting an employees work rights. Unless the allegation holds reasonable safety or security risks as per the terms of issue there is no grounds to remove or deny an ASIC. However once convicted of a serious crime such as murder, that's pretty much it and can no longer be held. Being accused of or charged, still is a position of innocence until proven guilty. Of course if you are accused of wanting to harm an aircraft or airport, then you will probably have access denied until some investigation is concluded. Much the same as you will not be fired/sacked until convicted, at which point you will lose your job and ASIC.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 09:35
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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So if I apply to Jetstar in the future, maybe I wonít mention I like campingÖ
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 09:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Pilots are meant to be a trusted profession, at times making it into the top 3 on the “Most Trusted Professions” list:
Psychopaths will not take their own life, they take the lives of others. History has shown some of the most ruthless killers have been well respected and educated professionals. These individuals have the ability to change personalties and suppress any guilt associated with heinous crimes.

It appears this individual had some personality traits that may have raised concerns, but he crafted his skill well enough to be promoted into positions of power.

I'm sure now we will hear more about his past, and the red flags that were ignored.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 09:42
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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43”

Could be elsewhere, not so at QF group.

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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:01
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
Yes if they pose a flight risk
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:15
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Could be elsewhere, not so at QF group.
ASIC issuers are a delegation from the Office of Home Affairs. The basic rules state that if you have an ASIC denied or canceled you have a right to review and appeal via the AAT. If QANTAS breaches the guidelines/rules they would be at risk of losing their delegation.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:22
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Don’t believe me, don’t care. Just watch what you get up to if you hold a QF ASIC. Have a look for the policy, you won’t find it. Not published to staff.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:30
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Even though the guy hasnít been proven guilty, the event does clearly articulate that potentially the physic assessments tests and the ASIC background tests are ineffective and are just a tick in the box exercise.

The aviation industry is pretty small in Australia, anyone in the know can easily get any good or bad intel on any pilot if they try hard enough, particularly if they have the contacts and have been around a while. ​​​​​​
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:33
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.

On another note I was just thinking how well the Qantarse physc testing works
I was thinking the exact same thing
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 10:49
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Donít believe me, donít care. Just watch what you get up to if you hold a QF ASIC. Have a look for the policy, you wonít find it. Not published to staff.
Its quite possible QF operates to its own laws, however the issue and cancellation of an ASIC is strictly governed by the transport security act. There is clear laws regarding when a ASIC may or must be cancelled, only the secretary of the office of home affairs can adjust the reasons. Reasons for cancellation by issuing body; no longer require access to secure area, breach of ASIC holder conditions, or conviction of aviation security related offence. Issuer must report all cancellations to the secretary and the secretary can force an issuer to reinstate an applicant. I only say this as you would not want someone to be able to just cancel your security access for no proper reason, especially just an allegation.
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