Electric Regional Aircraft in Service by 2026?
I think it quotes 400km range, so yep about 1 hour. Not applicable to virtually anything in Australia especially with alternate concerns. As said earlier battery technology still needs about 10 years of advancement at current pace to get to a reasonable range. So 20 years is probably a good mark.
Technical rip-apart at ;
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/
TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"
(also has articles on hydrogen fuel)
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/
TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"
(also has articles on hydrogen fuel)
Technical rip-apart at ;
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/
TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/
TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"
To reach these values, we used a 92% efficiency for the electric propulsion chain, battery-to-propeller-shaft, with 0.250 kWh energy per kg of battery (the energy density on a system level). Densities are today at typically 0.160 kWh per kilo but we upped this with 56% to cater for development in batteries during this decade.
I would normally agree wholeheartedly but his assumption on energy density seems to be out of whack on this. I think that he is overstating the requisite battery weight by about 50 percent.
Last edited by MickG0105; 21st Aug 2021 at 00:06. Reason: Added comment to save second post
-> MickG0105 ; the "(the energy density on a system level)" caveat is important.
An individual cell might have an impressive energy-to-weight ratio but on its' own it is of not much use.
Cells need to packaged into robust battery stacks and battery-monitoring/charging/protection must be added, all of which will reduce the energy-density of a usable 'battery'.
An individual cell might have an impressive energy-to-weight ratio but on its' own it is of not much use.
Cells need to packaged into robust battery stacks and battery-monitoring/charging/protection must be added, all of which will reduce the energy-density of a usable 'battery'.
I dunno.....
If I cannot consign Li-ION batteries in the cargo hold because of the fire risk, why oh why would you want to put them internally within the wing or fuselage area?
Oh, I know, tow them behind by the power cable...well clear of the aircraft....Turn them 'ORF' on landing and wind them in......so they don't get caught on the fence....or the ILS.....
If I cannot consign Li-ION batteries in the cargo hold because of the fire risk, why oh why would you want to put them internally within the wing or fuselage area?
Oh, I know, tow them behind by the power cable...well clear of the aircraft....Turn them 'ORF' on landing and wind them in......so they don't get caught on the fence....or the ILS.....
An electric beaver? Do you need dark glasses and your collar turned up when you go into the dealer and ask for one? For a friend, of course.
I had a hearty conversation, recently, with a gentleman who already has an electric powered GA training aircraft in operation. The aircraft has a one hour duration with a one hour charge time which makes it OK for typical pilot training missions. There are also a few airfields withing the one hour circle of Damyns Hall, where the aircraft is based, which have on airfield charge points. He did come out with some gems from airfield operators when he approached them with a view to getting more on airfield charge points such as:
"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"
Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!
"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?
Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.
Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.
Rans6......
"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"
Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!
"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?
Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.
Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.
Rans6......
Thread Starter
I had a hearty conversation, recently, with a gentleman who already has an electric powered GA training aircraft in operation. The aircraft has a one hour duration with a one hour charge time which makes it OK for typical pilot training missions. There are also a few airfields withing the one hour circle of Damyns Hall, where the aircraft is based, which have on airfield charge points. He did come out with some gems from airfield operators when he approached them with a view to getting more on airfield charge points such as:
"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"
Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!
"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?
Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.
Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.
Rans6......
"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"
Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!
"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?
Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.
Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.
Rans6......
For the time being I don't think any airfield owner is going to lose sleep over any electric aircraft that don't visit.
Can we draw an analogy with supermarkets, pubs and other businesses who are installing EV charging points?
I assume they are doing it to attract custom but they are probably getting subsidised too.
I assume they are doing it to attract custom but they are probably getting subsidised too.
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What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
Same thing that happens now if I land my jet at an airport that doesn’t have the correct stairs or refuelling facilities….. you be stuffed.
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Plenty of obstacles for the dreamers of EP pax carrying commercial Ops. A/C have lots of elect gizmos to support their operation, lights, avionics, retractable U/C (if the pie in the sky stuff ever got that far!), flaps, AC & or fans, ice protection all cutting into that precious batt supply! Even sitting in a cue awaiting to T/off is eating into yr reserve of FF!
I hope I am around to see these in service, maybe in my next life -)
I hope I am around to see these in service, maybe in my next life -)
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There is no logic in making electric airliners until all land based transport is running on renewable fuel, that is going to be a very long time, all electricity has to be converted to renewable or nuclear first. For aviation low pollution high density liquid fuels for turbines is going to be the norm for decades yet.
There is no logic in making electric airliners until all land based transport is running on renewable fuel, that is going to be a very long time, all electricity has to be converted to renewable or nuclear first. For aviation low pollution high density liquid fuels for turbines is going to be the norm for decades yet.
That's like saying there's no point going to mars until we develop faster than light travel to make it quick. Technology does not advance without purpose, so waiting until you have perfect conditions for the technology to start developing it means you start years behind where you could be.
Now we all know the issues like an electric train running off coal fired generators. Does not mean there are additional benefits, like that pollution can be limited to one area rather than distributed around where you live by smaller less efficient personal systems, also easier to capture and prevent release of polution from a large static power plant than individual mass produced especially mobile units. Also electrical power does not really care for altitude etc, not so much reliance on optimal altitudes and optimal ranges. The example of the aircraft waiting in line for take off, the electric engines just switch off and don't consume any power, yeah some power is still drained by AC and fans and system but this is minute compared the energy an idling turbine consumes.
Simplistic arguments of electric vs fossil fuel is not possible as there are vast differences of operation between the two technologies.
The main hindrance to electric vehicles in general is weight and volume of batteries required to make range effective. As that is solved the technology will flourish and not just from ecological point of view but they are far cheaper to run.