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Electric Regional Aircraft in Service by 2026?

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Electric Regional Aircraft in Service by 2026?

Old 20th Aug 2021, 03:38
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I think it quotes 400km range, so yep about 1 hour. Not applicable to virtually anything in Australia especially with alternate concerns. As said earlier battery technology still needs about 10 years of advancement at current pace to get to a reasonable range. So 20 years is probably a good mark.
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 23:19
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Technical rip-apart at ;
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/

TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"





(also has articles on hydrogen fuel)
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 23:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Leehamnews is a trusted and reliable source for all things aviation. That article drives a nail in the coffin me thinks…..
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 00:02
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KittyKatKaper View Post
Technical rip-apart at ;
https://leehamnews.com/2021/07/08/th...rcraft-part-2/

TLDR; "Tell 'em they're dreamin"
The energy density for lithium-ion batteries seems to be very much understated in that article. The author writes,

To reach these values, we used a 92% efficiency for the electric propulsion chain, battery-to-propeller-shaft, with 0.250 kWh energy per kg of battery (the energy density on a system level). Densities are today at typically 0.160 kWh per kilo but we upped this with 56% to cater for development in batteries during this decade.
So he is calculating the required battery weight using 0.250 kWh/kg, a figure he purports to be a 56 percent stretch improvement over current technology of 0.160 kWh/kg. However, current technology, the Panasonic 2170 battery used in the Tesla 3, is already delivering 0.260 kWh/kg. A 56 percent stretch on that would be 0.405 kWh/kg, pretty much bang on what Musk was predicting a year ago.

Originally Posted by No Idea Either View Post
Leehamnews is a trusted and reliable source for all things aviation. That article drives a nail in the coffin me thinks…..
I would normally agree wholeheartedly but his assumption on energy density seems to be out of whack on this. I think that he is overstating the requisite battery weight by about 50 percent.

Last edited by MickG0105; 21st Aug 2021 at 00:06. Reason: Added comment to save second post
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 00:45
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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8 tonnes of battery did sound an awful lot……….
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 01:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by No Idea Either View Post
8 tonnes of battery did sound an awful lot……….
4 tonnes is still a lot, we're just talking degrees of awfulness. Make no mistake, when trying to apply electric propulsion systems to aviation, battery weight is the most significant impediment by a long margin.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 07:00
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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-> MickG0105 ; the "(the energy density on a system level)" caveat is important.
An individual cell might have an impressive energy-to-weight ratio but on its' own it is of not much use.
Cells need to packaged into robust battery stacks and battery-monitoring/charging/protection must be added, all of which will reduce the energy-density of a usable 'battery'.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 07:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Snoop

I dunno.....
If I cannot consign Li-ION batteries in the cargo hold because of the fire risk, why oh why would you want to put them internally within the wing or fuselage area?
Oh, I know, tow them behind by the power cable...well clear of the aircraft....Turn them 'ORF' on landing and wind them in......so they don't get caught on the fence....or the ILS.....

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Old 21st Aug 2021, 07:49
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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An electric beaver? Do you need dark glasses and your collar turned up when you go into the dealer and ask for one? For a friend, of course.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 10:49
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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These people are away with the fairies when it comes to commercial EP aircraft but sure does make for amusing reading! -)
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 19:38
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I had a hearty conversation, recently, with a gentleman who already has an electric powered GA training aircraft in operation. The aircraft has a one hour duration with a one hour charge time which makes it OK for typical pilot training missions. There are also a few airfields withing the one hour circle of Damyns Hall, where the aircraft is based, which have on airfield charge points. He did come out with some gems from airfield operators when he approached them with a view to getting more on airfield charge points such as:

"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"

Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!

"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?

Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.

Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.

Rans6......
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 23:40
  #32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by rans6andrew View Post
I had a hearty conversation, recently, with a gentleman who already has an electric powered GA training aircraft in operation. The aircraft has a one hour duration with a one hour charge time which makes it OK for typical pilot training missions. There are also a few airfields withing the one hour circle of Damyns Hall, where the aircraft is based, which have on airfield charge points. He did come out with some gems from airfield operators when he approached them with a view to getting more on airfield charge points such as:

"why would I want to supply free electricity to aircraft when I am still trying to build up customers for my Avgas supply?"

Because the cost of the battery charge is only a couple of pounds and your landing fee is 15 quid!

"but what about the loss of Avgas sales?

Doh, the electric aircraft users are not going to be buying your Avgas and so won't be flying in and paying your landing fee.

Interestingly most of the on airfield charge setups are using solar power and recycled truck batteries to provide charging from off grid solar systems. This removes many of the restrictions imposed on the feed in grid tie familiar to most of us domestic solar installation owners and thus also gets them away from paying for grid supply and the tax associated. It would seem to be win win for airfield and aircraft operators.

Rans6......
If only it were as simple as the battery charge being only a couple of pound v the 15 quid landing fee. What about the cost of setting up the charging system? Why would you invest in a system that will be only used sporadically and you'll very likely never get your money back on?

For the time being I don't think any airfield owner is going to lose sleep over any electric aircraft that don't visit.
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 07:52
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Can we draw an analogy with supermarkets, pubs and other businesses who are installing EV charging points?
I assume they are doing it to attract custom but they are probably getting subsidised too.
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 11:24
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 21:59
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
Roll out a diesel GPU
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Old 22nd Aug 2021, 22:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.
The same as when your battery goes flat now, from what I read batteries are not integral and are "plug and play". So you can add/remove batteries to control range vs payload. Just roll up with a charged battery set and fly out, or possibly they can be charged from a normal socket in the wall albeit a much slower rate, which would just require the adapter and extension cord.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 09:09
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cattletruck View Post
What happens if you land an electric aeroplane at an airport that doesn't have a proper charge point (say as a precautionary emergency - passenger sick)? I guess you'd be stuck there for a while until somehow you find a way to get enough charge to fly out and make it to somewhere that does have a proper charge point.

Same thing that happens now if I land my jet at an airport that doesn’t have the correct stairs or refuelling facilities….. you be stuffed.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 12:37
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Plenty of obstacles for the dreamers of EP pax carrying commercial Ops. A/C have lots of elect gizmos to support their operation, lights, avionics, retractable U/C (if the pie in the sky stuff ever got that far!), flaps, AC & or fans, ice protection all cutting into that precious batt supply! Even sitting in a cue awaiting to T/off is eating into yr reserve of FF!

I hope I am around to see these in service, maybe in my next life -)
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 20:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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There is no logic in making electric airliners until all land based transport is running on renewable fuel, that is going to be a very long time, all electricity has to be converted to renewable or nuclear first. For aviation low pollution high density liquid fuels for turbines is going to be the norm for decades yet.
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Old 23rd Aug 2021, 22:51
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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There is no logic in making electric airliners until all land based transport is running on renewable fuel, that is going to be a very long time, all electricity has to be converted to renewable or nuclear first. For aviation low pollution high density liquid fuels for turbines is going to be the norm for decades yet.
Guess we should just convert all the city trains and trams to diesel then.

That's like saying there's no point going to mars until we develop faster than light travel to make it quick. Technology does not advance without purpose, so waiting until you have perfect conditions for the technology to start developing it means you start years behind where you could be.

Now we all know the issues like an electric train running off coal fired generators. Does not mean there are additional benefits, like that pollution can be limited to one area rather than distributed around where you live by smaller less efficient personal systems, also easier to capture and prevent release of polution from a large static power plant than individual mass produced especially mobile units. Also electrical power does not really care for altitude etc, not so much reliance on optimal altitudes and optimal ranges. The example of the aircraft waiting in line for take off, the electric engines just switch off and don't consume any power, yeah some power is still drained by AC and fans and system but this is minute compared the energy an idling turbine consumes.

Simplistic arguments of electric vs fossil fuel is not possible as there are vast differences of operation between the two technologies.

The main hindrance to electric vehicles in general is weight and volume of batteries required to make range effective. As that is solved the technology will flourish and not just from ecological point of view but they are far cheaper to run.
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