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Is the Cadet Pilot extinct down under?

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Is the Cadet Pilot extinct down under?

Old 4th Oct 2020, 08:45
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
I'm not the one extolling the virtues of cadet programs to the point that they are infallible and produce a much better pilot.
Did you want to comment on the second part of my post or offer some anecdotal evidence of your own?
Because I’m not extolling the virtues of anything beyond debunking false stereotypes made without real evidence beyond someone’s prejudice.

My anecdotal evidence is as pointless as yours, all I’ll say is I really can’t tell the difference in standards between a pilot from a cadet background vs one from a GA background, with the one exception that cadets are generally a few years younger.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 08:54
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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For those that wonder why Qantas hasn't shut down any of their cadet courses in Wellcamp, what cost is Qantas actually bearing to keep them running? The courses are 100% self funded by the student with no contribution by the airline, essentially it is a glorified VET course.
Qantas has zero obligation to hire and churning out hundreds of fresh CPLs over the next few years to further flood the market is surely is a great way to drive down T&Cs.

Though fully sponsored cadetships still training eg. CX is hard to explain.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 08:55
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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I'll place a small bet.

Over the next few years, Chinese Cadets will make almost 50% of aviation training in Australia, unlike the rest of the world Chinese airlines are still hiring cadets, (domestic aviation is now back at 2019 levels), and with airlines unable to get their cadets into Australia or America their is a growing backlog of cadets. I know of Australian companies with 250+ cadets who are waiting in China already assigned to cadet groups many of whom already hold visas.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 09:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Havoste think QF always wanted a freebie for the "set-up" Govt State or Fed or Local dollars , they were flea bagging around
look for someone else's cash & a free ride

Getting it going without spending a dime , The buildings facilities would have cost many million , likely well north of 10 million

Looks like those costs were paid by the Airport owner & FTA & it looks like they were smart enough to agree to front the build with
the proviso of penalties if QF had a "Womans Day" six months in & decided they didn't want to do it anymore

That would be why it is still running I would think, when you whore there is a downside

Can see why someone who already has an established vocation/profession might roll the dice , at best one third chance of getting a win

But why a school leaver would do it ? You would be mad , max out student loan , forfeit any chance of getting another skill/career , - go be a nurse or tech in the Navy
, & check out cadetships in 5/6 years.

The reality is that the "Airline Industry" doesn't actually exist anymore , it is something from part days. If it returns & in what form - well that is open to speculation

CX no more sent out to FTA , & some talk that some courses got sent home

Last edited by Telfer86; 4th Oct 2020 at 09:29.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 13:11
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I am a current captain that came through the cadet pathway. A frequent question I am often asked by both cadet first officers and direct entry first officers is “who makes the better pilot”. I think the answer is simple, no one way is necessarily better than the other. As the saying goes “there are a million ways to skin a cat”. It comes down to the discipline of the individual. I’ve flown with great guys and girls from both pathways. I’ve also flown with some that were borderline incompetent. Whilst I believe it to be true that handling errors are more common in first officers with low-time, they tend to be better at adapting to SOPs. It is expected of a new pilot, in the same way that a P plater in a car gains experience, and makes errors. The most dangerous candidates are always those that think they know more than they do. If you were to compare the two after several thousand hrs, any difference you would observe would be a reflection of the individuals personality, demeanour and professionalism.

Moving off from the thread drift. To answer the real question, “will cadetships have their place still?”. Maybe, but it will be a very long way down the track. With such a surplus of pilots stood down, unemployed or waiting for that break from slogging it out in GA, how could any airline justify a Cadetship now? Why would any prospective pilot with half a brain want to risk entering such a career now? From both a business sense, and dare I say it, a moral standpoint, cadetships imho don’t have a place in the immediately foreseeable future. There is a current wealth of experience floating around the industry looking for another chance, and it would be remiss, as an industry, to lose that experience by overlooking it for brand new pilots.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 20:29
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Unstall ....

Well said!
I joined an Oz-major with plenty of experience over twenty years ago. I admit to reservations about its cadet scheme, but I’ve found my views to be without foundation given the airline’s people, training, standards, & the average time-to-command.
It comes down to the discipline of the individual
and I agree.
...but WRT
how could any airline justify a Cadetship now?
....current cadet schemes are profitable for airlines who continue to offer the disingenuous suggestion of ongoing employment in a XX-group airline if you join (& pay) for their course.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 21:54
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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....current cadet schemes are profitable for airlines who continue to offer the disingenuous suggestion of ongoing employment in a XX-group airline if you join (& pay) for their course.
Exactly right! If airlines really wanted cadets schemes to provide a reliable supply of pilots, they would offer cadetships free of charge to suitably chosen candidates, with a bond period attached to the end of their training. “Pay-to-fly” cadetships are just another income stream for airlines who will take your money and offer no guarantee of a job.

As far as the “quality” issues. I’ve flown with people with diverse flying backgrounds, from a 20,000 hr co-pilot who had normalised hazardous attitudes because nothing bad had happened to him yet, to a 200 hr guy who appeared to have ten times that experience and an amazing attitude to match. It’s purely down to the individual and their capacity for humility.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 23:22
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post
Exactly right! If airlines really wanted cadets schemes to provide a reliable supply of pilots, they would offer cadetships free of charge to suitably chosen candidates, with a bond period attached to the end of their training. “Pay-to-fly” cadetships are just another income stream for airlines who will take your money and offer no guarantee of a job.
As far as I’m aware the money is payed to the flying school, which in Australia for the most part is not connected to the airline. The airline does spend some amount of HR resources with regards to selection, monitoring and overall assessment of the cadet’s performance.

Last edited by dr dre; 5th Oct 2020 at 01:54.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 05:00
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Set up costs would have been likely over $25 million , so QF locked in by Airport owner /flying school to keep going

That was the price they paid to not wanting to contribute a brass razxoo for set up, QF like to try this little trick - land the cost of somebody else
- just like the whoring around for HQ location at the moment. Wanting a tax payer free ride from State Govts - how interesting ?

Airline industry , doesn't exist anymore , if it returns , & in what timeline & when that is a variable

So if you enter just understand you are training for an industry that is grounded worldwide

The only way atm you would enter employment with QF after graduation (when 90% of their pilots are stood down/lwop) is if QF decide
to make a non-commercial bloody minded decision. ie: " we will employ the cadets immediately on what little flying we have , when 1000s of our pilots not working"

Will they do this ??. Well they do make some big decisions that logic & reason doesn't explain ie: not buying 777s, buying two "expirimental"(new, unproven) AC at same time 787& A380
- both delayed for years & backfired spectacularly. Continuing to spend on A380 upgrades once Covid hit - on AC that will never fly. All madman decisions that cost billions (ie: how much more
money you would have earned if 777 purchased)

Just understand the following things , you are investing $150K & circa two years on an industry/career that

1. Doesn't exist right now
2. Your employer is grounded right now & thousands of pilots in Australia unemployed , 100s of thousands around the world

So if people try to tell you 1989, 2001 , 2010 are "similar" they would not be correct

Ignore the babytalk from people claiming to be "Airline Captains" about cadet/re; direct entry. Its been done since end of ww2 in EU so
obviously works fine. These characters would be best off trying to get alternative employment / retrain in another skill - most won't be flying for years if ever.
& almost all are discovering that the "skills & abilities" as airline pilots are worth nothing in the outside world , & their prospects to earn six figure incomes are
nil unless you want to do "labouring" type mining FIFO work working 70 + hour weeks in the Pilbara. The flash houses & cars are being put up for sale

Corporates are not screaming out for stood down or redundant Australian airline pilots, & most are doing menial , low paid , unstable casual work. & good on
them for getting out & working - just no point pretending the reality is different from what it is. The exception is the small % who acquired skill/trade/profession before/during
their flying career & got enough ongoing & current experience to keep the skill marketable & useful - unfortunately the vast majority didn't bother. Do you want to end up in
this position in your Life ?

Had hoped that Covid would be a small blip - but that is not the case. QF originally were saying 40% by the end of July - they achieved 4%

Why don't some of the people claiming to be "Airline Captains" share what skills outside flying they have & how they are paying the bills now

I wonder if the QF leadership group will be attending the graduations at Wellcamps , big cheesy grins , kissy kissy & hugs all around pumping up the volume, much dancing & jumping around

Think the same crew from QF who went to the "opening party" will be notable for the absence from facility

Think a more lonely journey out front gate with your $150k debt & journey direct to the Centrelink line & don't think about Uni your
loan account is now maxed out

Don't get sucked in the flash brochures & the bubsy babytalk on here , these guys are all unemployed (or underemployed) right now & face a very uncertain future

Be careful what you wish for

Last edited by Telfer86; 5th Oct 2020 at 05:37.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 05:29
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I’m aware the money is payed to the flying school, which in Australia for the most part is not connected to the airline. The airline does spend some amount of HR resources with regards to selection, monitoring and overall assessment of the cadet’s performance.
If the endorsement costs for Jetstar pilots is anything to go by there is possibly a "facilitation fee" to cover some of the costs associated with the HR resources.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 14:25
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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As long as there are wealthy parents and not so wealthy parents that live their dreams through their children, cadet schemes will live on. Saying that, the Virgin cadet program is dead and will not re-emerge for a long time, if ever. So that leaves Qantas, Jetstar and ReX as potential providers in Australia.
Virgin recently made 800 pilots redundant (all 777, 330, ATR, NZ 737 and Tigerair 737 and 320 pilots). In addition, there are hundreds of pilots redundant and returning to Australia from China, Japan, Vietnam, Hong Kong and the Middle East. I would guess there would be at least 2000 unemployed experienced pilots in Oz right now.
Even during the good times with recruitment in full swing, there are barely 100 jobs available every 12 months in Australia. Do the math!
Also, Virgin have committed to re-employ from the redundant pilots until the year 2028. Therefore, there will be hardly any jobs for externals available at Virgin for the next 7 years.
To any newly qualified pilot or person contemplating being a pilot, I would offer the same advice that I received from my instructors over 25 years ago. Try and join the defence force as a pilot, and if no joy, pick a career that will make you enough money to fly as a hobby.

Last edited by "Littlebird"; 5th Oct 2020 at 14:50.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 22:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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As far as what will the future hold for that person, who knows? It could be positive or negative, all signs point to ab initio pilots marking up a bigger chunk of airline recruitment in the future.
Well it looks like LH have decided that the future of their cadet pilots is not very bright at all:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airline...140484.article

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Old 8th Oct 2020, 00:14
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Yup, and here’s the rub.

No real prospect of any return on investment for 5, perhaps 10 years!

Candidate or Airline.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 01:07
  #54 (permalink)  
Keg

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The demise of cadet programs has been predicted in Australia for decades and yet they keep rejuvenating- albeit in slightly different forms given that these days they’re mostly self funded.

The reason for them re-occurring is that they fill a need. Sure, the ‘need’ fluctuates depending on underlying economic conditions (both global and local). At the moment that need is precisely zero.

Certainly the airline has a lot more control over the final product using cadets and generally the desire for cadet courses invariably occurs when the pilot supply is getting a bit tight and forcing airlines to look at candidates that previously would have been deemed ‘not competitive’. Given the lag of getting the courses set up and running it’s no surprise that invariably the initial graduates tend to be graduating just as the industry goes into a downward trend.

Are there better ways of doing it or producing a better pilot? Perhaps though pass/fail rates at airlines would likely indicate that for command at least there is no discernible difference between cadets and non cadets and so the ‘better pilot’ is likely only in the formative years within an airline environment.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 02:58
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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The reason for them re-occurring is that they fill a need. Sure, the ‘need’ fluctuates depending on underlying economic conditions (both global and local). At the moment that need is precisely zero.
I would probably dispute that assertion. There has never been a real "need" in Australia for Cadet programs ever. There has always been a good supply of qualified pilots so much so that we export pilots to the world. In more recent iterations the cadet programs are more about controlling your workforce and interfering in the labour market to keep downward pressure on salaries especially for Regional Airlines. What airlines do not want is people consistently jumping around gaining experience and resigning. Regional Airlines feel this the most as they don't pay enough to keep their staff long term so had to create roadblocks to prevent people resigning.

There could have been an argument that Cadets would be needed into the future as flying training was becoming a significant financial risk however Covid has fixed that problem for the next 10 years.

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Old 8th Oct 2020, 03:11
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
There has never been a real "need" in Australia for Cadet programs ever. There has always been a good supply of qualified pilots
Legally qualified is one thing, having the personal attributes to perform the role that an employer seeks of them is another.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 04:16
  #57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Legally qualified is one thing, having the personal attributes to perform the role that an employer seeks of them is another.
Is there not ample bodies around the Regional Twin network capable? Sure you might clean out some operators but I don’t think they care. I mean Jetstar has had its fair share of wiping out the Rex ranks over the years.

Anyone flying a Kingair or above should be the succession material.

Long Haul it’s clearly just a way to eliminate a second FO. Which is what one long haul loco here used to do.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 05:42
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Is there not ample bodies around the Regional Twin network capable? Sure you might clean out some operators but I don’t think they care. I mean Jetstar has had its fair share of wiping out the Rex ranks over the years.

Anyone flying a Kingair or above should be the succession material.
A large number of those in the regional twin networks around the country are cadets themselves. Even they are attacked for not having enough single pilot time before joining that regional and "stealing" a job a GA charter pilot or instructor was "entitled" to.

Any idea of a standard pilot career path a pilot should take in GA before joining an airline was thrown out years ago.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 05:54
  #59 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
Is there not ample bodies around the Regional Twin network capable?
History has demonstrated that at times this has not been the case. 1988/89 prior to the dispute the shortage was starting to bite in terms of the quality of suitable applicants which is why QF set up their Cadetship then. I recall that in about ‘08 or thereabouts JQ changed their selection criteria as they too started to run short of candidates that exceeded the standard.
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Old 8th Oct 2020, 06:12
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Why would people train for an industry that currently doesn't exist & is going to have to resized , restructured in a massive way
  • Virgin laid off 1000 pilots , they get priority for re-employment until 2028, 40% paycut for those who remain
  • QF Group likely have around 4500 pilots , they only need 10% of those atm & priority for next decade will be shuffling the excess around the group ,
  • At least 2000 Australian pilots returning from jobs overseas & in many cases their jobs OS are permanently gone
  • There are 4000 plus pilots in Australia who are currently "stood down" & facing possible redundancy
  • 100s made redundant from Air NZ , Aussie airlines have always liked Kiwi pilots
  • Every year 150 or so ADF pilots are eligible to leave , you will have to compete against them
  • Shut down or cadetships by almost all the worlds Airlines (aside from China, as locals replacing expat)
  • Flying schools in Australia face very uncertain future, so way way less instructor jobs
Have a look at the thread on SEA (Singapore flying schools) it is more sensible - this forum is all rose coloured glasses dogma

Don't get sucked in the "best time to train" nonsense, there are thousands of unemployed pilots in Australia now & unfortunately
that will remain the case for years. Difficult to think of a more useless qualification than a CPL/IR right now

The QF/Aviation Uni partnership was much over hyped, how many did actually get hired direct from Aviation Uni during the 4 year
pre-covid boom ? - relatively token number. Relatively recently CQU were "talking up" their new partnership with Qlink - for goodness sake
Qlink is largely grounded - quite incredible to be doing press releases at this time.

You expect private institutions to be full of misleading BS with their marketing, surprising how low the Uni's will stoop to make a buck

Think quite unethical for Aviation Unis to be "talking up their book" when the industry has collapsed & it is obvious
that it will emerge much smaller , years down the track. They have one motivation & one motivation only - achieving full enrolments & maximising
funding from Govt

10 months into Corona & the scorecard for Aussie airlines is domestic 5% ; international 0%.

I knew this was bad but I wasn't expecting or guess at this level of disaster

Not the time to be looking at cadetships , set up your plan B qualification/skill & look at it in a couple of years

This is not 1988 or 2008, the world aviation industry is grounded, there are 1000s of unemployed pilots in Australia now & the world is in
for a monster recession unfortunately

Last edited by Telfer86; 8th Oct 2020 at 06:47.
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