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Is the Cadet Pilot extinct down under?

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Is the Cadet Pilot extinct down under?

Old 4th Oct 2020, 00:03
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Qantas cadets still buzzing around Wellcamp...
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 00:05
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Cadetships nowadays are almost always self funded. $100-150K? Employers demand a return of service for this “Golden Opportunity”, typically 5-7 years. In return, the “Contract” usually guarantees a job at the end, subject to achieving the required standards of course.

In a massive downturn such as this, redundancies are the order of the day and most industrial agreements specify in the reverse order of seniority.

Oops!
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 00:14
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post
Cadetships nowadays are almost always self funded. $100-150K? Employers demand a return of service for this “Golden Opportunity”, typically 5-7 years. In return, the “Contract” usually guarantees a job at the end, subject to achieving the required standards of course.
I can only think of one carrier in Oz doing that, and the bonded amount wasn’t that much for a 7 year minimum employment. I also know of some carriers who were bonding any pilot with a similar amount, cadet or GA, for their endorsement training too.

Every other carrier that was operating a cadet program had no obligation beyond a minimum notice period if the cadet was self funded, and some did choose that option to take their labor elsewhere before or early on during their employment with said carrier.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 00:19
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 View Post
In a massive downturn such as this, redundancies are the order of the day and most industrial agreements specify in the reverse order of seniority.

Oops!
And those at the bottom could’ve been employed via any stream, cadet, GA, military. Some of the most senior pilots at airlines are cadets.

A company needs to make the bottom pilot redundant, if that happens to be an ex RAAF fighter ace with 10,000hrs in hornets considered an absolute top gun, and second most junior is a 21 year old cadet with 200 hours, guess who’s getting the chop?
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:04
  #25 (permalink)  
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So what’s the plan for Oxford and FTA? I assume they will need to sell aircraft/lay-off staff or close down? They can’t just run the current fleet and operational size for the next five years with little to no contracts thrown at them. As General Aviation is not associated with the Union movement they won’t be getting a cent from any Labor Government, so Oxford in Melbourne are probably most at risk.

Rex have taken over the mob at Ballarat so they might live to see another day.

Virgin had some form of deal underway with FTA, now as this involves cost, it’s clearly dead. With the amount of backlog that VA Group has on its redundancy list, they wont have any issues this decade recruiting, however with limited expansions plans into the future, it seem as they won’t need to.

Not sure how much QF is spending on its programs however that tap will most certainly be turned off.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:11
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Aero Clubs around the country are quite busy at the moment, my local has put on extra instructors. I was told two things with that, people have more time, government assistance, and people are cashing out their super. A CFI agreed with me they expect that to die off post March with cause for concern for the ‘new normal’ post Government assistance ending.

However, that boom is largely for recreational reasons for many. That 30 year old tropics CPL guy or girl heading up north is on the verge of extinction. 30 years ago in Darwin we had the luxury of sifting through multiple resumes from tropics trained young pilots. These days you would be lucky to find one.

Anyone churning out more than 10-15 CPLs a year are in trouble.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Aviation has effectively gone back 30 years, make of it what you wish but in those days (and in mine for that matter) cadets were the exception not the norm.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:19
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
You’re aware a proper cadet program is designed to avoid that? Candidates undergo a selection process, training is structured and monitored and repeated fail attempts at assessments wouldn’t be tolerated? You can’t just pay your way to a job.
I should have specified that is outside of cadetships.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Cadet courses don’t screen for general laziness, listening skills or the ability to stick to company SOPs. The first one is a major gripe of mine, an issue that I see more often of late which then will stem to others in the future when these people get promotions. I have questionable ability in some should the $hit hit the fan in the future when they are in command.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 01:49
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
And those at the bottom could’ve been employed via any stream, cadet, GA, military. Some of the most senior pilots at airlines are cadets.

A company needs to make the bottom pilot redundant, if that happens to be an ex RAAF fighter ace with 10,000hrs in hornets considered an absolute top gun, and second most junior is a 21 year old cadet with 200 hours, guess who’s getting the chop?
My point exactly Dr.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 02:09
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Beware of the industry terms in a few years. The oversupply might lead to significant lower pay / later promotions.

I know not on your radar right now ( been there), but trust me, t&c are all you are interested in later in your career.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 02:35
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
Cadet courses don’t screen for general laziness, listening skills or the ability to stick to company SOPs. The first one is a major gripe of mine, an issue that I see more often of late which then will stem to others in the future when these people get promotions. I have questionable ability in some should the $hit hit the fan in the future when they are in command.
Yeah whatever mate. The exact same things have been said about cadets for decades now (these programs didn’t just start in the last couple of years). Guess what, almost all became Captains, some training captains too. They’ve done fine.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 03:06
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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So if Cadetships become they way of the future here In Australia, what does this mean for experienced and well deserving GA drivers come recruitment time? I.e.

Example CV;
Degree
ATPL Theory
500-2000 Multi
100 Night
4000+ TT (If were talking about 5 years no external hiring)

do they get shafted to the curb? Surely there will be a genuine need for actual experience in some RPT cockpit somewhere?
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 03:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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from one of the contributors above (& this isn't intended to upset anyone)


"Humankind has always prevailed. This virus is not the worst global event in the last 100 years. We were swinging in the 50’s after WWII. That era proved the zest for prosperity after 5 years of despair. This virus won’t give us 5 years of despair. We have medical science, vaccines only months away from certification, rapid testing on the horizon, etc. Sure, aviation won’t return overnight, but my optimism remains"

The pilots know things about medicine that the medical professors don't know ? Economics professor also

What babbling baby talk

Cadetship now ? with either Rex or QF ?

Taking a big risk doing direct from year 12 with no "plan B" vocation/profession/skill

Surely any vacancies at Qlink for next few years would be filled by those who are stood down from other QF group airlines , returning from lwop
to other QF group airlines or have been made redundant. Probably nudging 5000 in QF group Australia based airlines (717, Network, Qlink , EFA , JQ ,Mainline) & a significant surplus
for at least 4 or 5 years

Maybe QF are planning to get cadets into Qlink regardless of stand down redundancy in other group airlines

Notice all Lufthansa just sent all their cadets home, lots of other airlines have , CX ?

QF program still running is very strange, the boasted about how it was going to be bigger than Texas - then took years & years to get it going , L3 walked
away at some point. Now keeping it going & new intakes when airlines fleet around world all grounded , we are just a little bit off the pace in Aussie

Maybe QF were dumb enough to sign a contract with significant financial penalties for shutting it down, whole thing looked like an example of how to not do
this kind of project. Big talking , bullshitting & boasting as you delayed delivery for years , major contractor walking away , did the Aussie talk feast for years about location
To much big talkies not enough action



Last edited by Telfer86; 4th Oct 2020 at 03:30.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 03:33
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SITTINGBULL View Post
So if Cadetships become they way of the future here In Australia, what does this mean for experienced and well deserving GA drivers come recruitment time? I.e.

Example CV;
Degree
ATPL Theory
500-2000 Multi
100 Night
4000+ TT (If were talking about 5 years no external hiring)

do they get shafted to the curb?
Who is the person behind those numbers? Can they work in a team, or are they single pilot focused? Will
they follow SOPs? Can they communicate well? Do they respond well to constructive criticism and strive to improve themselves? Do they have established decision making processes? Do they bark out orders or lead from example? Would you want to spend hours locked up in a flight deck with them? Do they show hazardous attitudes? Are they argumentative, it’s my way or the highway?

Numbers on a resume only show you a fraction of the person you’re going to recruit. Airlines have switched to personality based recruitment for a reason.

As far as what will the future hold for that person, who knows? It could be positive or negative, all signs point to ab initio pilots marking up a bigger chunk of airline recruitment in the future.

Surely there will be a genuine need for actual experience in some RPT cockpit somewhere?
The one sitting on the LHS? Some airlines are almost all cadet recruitment based, LH springs to mind. I think they can fly planes.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 06:34
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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The one sitting on the LHS? Some airlines are almost all cadet recruitment based, LH springs to mind. I think they can fly planes.
They also have a subsidiary called Germanwings. I'm not sure if their cadets went through the same program as Lufthansa but if you are looking for an example I wouldn't be using Lufthansa.

Do they respond well to constructive criticism and strive to improve themselves? Do they have established decision making processes? Do they bark out orders or lead from example? Would you want to spend hours locked up in a flight deck with them? Do they show hazardous attitudes? Are they argumentative, it’s my way or the highway?
Just based on my experience, I get a lot more of the negative answers to your questions from the cadet F/O's I fly with than the direct entry pilots. Most of them are very good but even they admit that they didn't know how little they knew when they were first CTL.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 06:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
They also have a subsidiary called Germanwings. I'm not sure if their cadets went through the same program as Lufthansa but if you are looking for an example I wouldn't be using Lufthansa.
You might also want to look at the backgrounds of those who committed similar horrible acts in Egyptair, Silkair and Fedex before making such a comment, using those one in a billion terrible incidents as a measure for pilots of certain backgrounds is ridiculous.


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Old 4th Oct 2020, 07:05
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The Qf Cadetship looks alive and well. I believe there is another course starting later this year so congratulations to them and good luck!

As for those “experienced drivers” suggesting they are more deserving of a job than less experienced pilots, that’s exactly the entitled attitude that will kill your chances.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 08:18
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Your achieve a bubsy babytalk index of 9.5/10 for that response GM

"It's all just so wonderful"

The downsides of QF cadetship atm are

1. QF group has 4500 pilots in Australia - doesn't even need 10% of them
2. 1000 Virgin guys made redundant
3. 2000 more Aust pilots made redundant overseas will return
4. No international atm , domestic at around 5% max
5. You will max out your student loan, ie: will you be able to do business degree if after Cship QF don't take you on , & no GA job
6. Virtually no GA jobs for when you finish
7. Do it if you are prepared to roll the dice & come out with no career & $150k down & atm you would think that would exceed 75% chance

So not so sure why GM (great handle just wants to make you do aussie , oi oi chants) claims it is so wonderful , perhaps he/she can enlighten us

I would have thought the success could only be gauged a few years down the track when grad destinations are figured

The only reason I can see for QF to keep open is financial penalties from flying school /Airport if they shut it down

Why train pilots when you have 1000s of redundant ones

Perhaps QF don't like admitting mistakes (just like 777 - we could never make it work) they dithered about this project since 2015 , likely tried to
get a free ride (L3 walked) & missed the opportunity window. Lot's of cheesy sh55 eating grins from the QF gang in the publicity blurbs

QF (like everyone) do on occasion do some pretty stupid things, would have been an idea to cancel immediately upgrades to A380 when Covid
hit, could have saved hundreds of mill. Noticed the leader in August stated he believes they will fly again , not sure how many would agree

Standing by for more Bubsy babytalk
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 08:19
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not the one extolling the virtues of cadet programs to the point that they are infallible and produce a much better pilot. I was merely suggesting that if you want to use an example of an airline that is exclusively a cadet based program that supports your point, then LH is not a good one.

Did you want to comment on the second part of my post or offer some anecdotal evidence of your own?
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