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A masterclass in situation management

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A masterclass in situation management

Old 1st Oct 2020, 03:54
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
When the hotel quarantine began I did read somewhere that the proposition was put by someone that farming the guard duty to the security industry, rather than the ADF, was seen as a plus plus by Labor, giving employment to some of the populous who were already under the gun, and currying favour with the union responsible for the security industry, who it was said was "powerful".
Employees belonging to powerful unions generally get six figure salaries and have a secure job that lasts their whole working life. Think mining, construction or port workers.

Security guards that are involved in this fiasco are casual workers who earn barely above minimum pay and don't know whether they have work (or pay) tomorrow. Kind of like the lowly paid casual nursing home staff that need to work at multiple sites to make ends meet. If there were any financial impropriety, it would be to transfer government money to the coffers of fat cat business owners squeezing every cent out of their staff. (in a less cynical tone, the original spread of Covid was mostly through rich people travelling the world, the current spread worldwide is generally through poor people who are forced to work in multiple sites or have no pay if they do not work)

Think it was in "The Australian". The fact that Comrade Dan keeps lying about the offer of ADF not being made is incredulous. Interesting to see the results of the next Vic election, and if the Feds pick up any of the tab for Labors shots to both feet.
Right, "The Australian", that explains it.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 05:06
  #42 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by cee cee View Post
Right, "The Australian", that explains it.
So you’re suggesting the Australian mis-reported the relevant Minister’s comments to the judicial inquiry about why a particular company was chosen to provide security? The Age reported the same comments! Interestingly didn’t see much about those comments in the ABC though. Why would that be?

The level of confirmation bias based on who did/ did not report a particular thing is surreal. Just as surreal as Victorian Dan supporters banging on about the Ruby Princess as a way of deflecting from systemic, ongoing, multi agency incompetency in the Victorian government.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 05:55
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
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I agree that party politics should play no part in managing a pandemic. I will praise and criticise, a-politically, as follows.

I would give the VIC Government a big fail for their implementation of hotel quarantine. But not for the same reason as most. There is nothing inherently wrong with private security. We use private security at airports. Banks use private security. But that particular operation in VIC didn't work. Regardless of who the inquiry will eventually find to be accountable or responsible, the success or failure of quarantine is measured by its ability to actually quarantine people. They had one job. But who were "they"? They don't seem to even know. That's a problem. Is it a problem unique to this particular government? I think that's what they are still trying to work out.

I would also give the NSW, SA, QLD and WA Governments a big fail for the implementation of hotel quarantine. Every one of these states has had breaches of hotel quarantine subsequent to the VIC outbreak - they didn't even learn from VIC's mistake. ADF or no ADF. They also had one job, plus the benefit of hindsight. They were just very, very lucky that those breaches didn't spread COVID all over the community before they were discovered, as happened in VIC. When you bring in 4000 people a week, statistically some of them are going to have COVID. The consequences of a breach can be enormous, as seen in VIC.

I would give the VIC Government very high credit for how they have handled the outbreak resulting from the quarantine breaches. They made a plan, they made it clear, they implemented it, they enforced it, they set clear targets, and they are meeting those targets. They are on TV every day with updates. It's working.

I would also give all the other states high credit for how they have handled their community transmissions. NSW, QLD and SA have all proven that small outbreaks can be contained and managed while still allowing most of the economy to function. They don't want an outbreak like VIC, but they have also proven that you don't need full elimination like WA and TAS seem to think. Low numbers with good tracing and testing are manageable. Just need to keep it out of aged care.

I would give all the other states low credit for the continued closures of the their state borders, and the ridiculous gloating about it, particularly QLD and WA. The only state they should have been closed to since June is VIC. The only state that hasn't closed its borders ever is VIC. The other states should be opening up to regional VIC right now, as regional VIC has zero community transmission, and there is a border around Melbourne metro.

I say that as a pilot who has a vested interest in the aviation industry returning ASAP. But I also think that it is vital for Australia to function as a country, rather than the NUSA (Non-United States of Australia). Election or no election. Keeping state borders closed because it is "popular" among voters is unacceptable, and it is the only thing I have ever agreed with Clive Palmer about.

I would give the Federal Government very low credit for pretty much everything it has done, from self-isolation of international passengers, to down-playing the virus, to the COVID App that had already proven not to work before it was implemented, to the Ruby Princess, to bickering with the states (but only the Labor ones), and playing party politics. They have let QF and VA whither while giving Rex enough cash to expand to jets. Australians are returning on every airline other than VA and QF. I have not seen any leadership from the Federal Government to get the states to work together and get the borders open, I've seen the opposite. I also believe they should have been in charge of international inbound quarantine, as that is not a state responsibility, but I mentioned that earlier. They also seem to shirk their responsibility for aged care. They generally seem annoyed that COVID has given the State Governments so much attention.

So, in summary, I believe every State Governement has failed in some respect, and so has the Federal Government. But I don't believe anyone is accountable for killing 768 people. Those lives may have been saveable, but the virus killed those people. If I could identify that I could save 1000 lives per year from motor vehicle accidents by forcing everyone to wear helmets in vehicles, am I now suddenly accountable for those 1000 lives by not enforcing it? That was really the point of my question about the role of government in a pandemic. They need to balance the freedoms, economic prosperity, and health of their citizens. Not save every person at all costs. We are learning by watching the rest of the world, that acting quickly and strongly is the best answer. We have learned that once an outbreak gets to a certain point, it becomes unmanageable, horrific, and it still destroys the economy. It's still playing out around the world, but we are learning more about it every day.

At the end of the day, I would say that our governments have collectively saved possibly 25,000 people, because they got most of it right.

There was no rulebook for this, some of it had to be worked out along the way. There was some resistance along the way, for fear of hurting the economy. There were inevitably going to be some mistakes made. It's not over yet. Mistakes will still be made. The international border is going to be a huge project next year, as is (hopefully) the vaccination program. We need to stop calling our politicians names, and work together. We need to open state borders and get the economy going. We need to double down on protecting aged care, and if that means creating proper jobs on full-time pay and conditions, then so be it. We need more quarantine facilities so we can get more than 50 people on a widebody jet, and we need those facilities to be water-tight. We need to get VIC's numbers down, and reopen quarantine in VIC (and get it right this time). We need international bubbles. We have a lot of work to do.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 06:35
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
So you’re suggesting the Australian mis-reported the relevant Minister’s comments to the judicial inquiry about why a particular company was chosen to provide security? The Age reported the same comments!
Have not seen that comment and cannot find it. Can you supply a link?
The only ones I find tend to suggest deunionisation is a bigger issue in the private security industry.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...27-p55pyg.html
https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...03-p558og.html
Rather the problems are similar to those in some other Australian workplaces and industries – insecure work, exploitation of temporary migrants, inadequate training and decades of de-unionisation.

I have seen no evidence that the choice of private security firm is driven by union pressure.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 07:10
  #45 (permalink)  
Keg

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How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! This one is subscriber only at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.

Originally Posted by Derfred View Post

I would give the VIC Government very high credit for how they have handled the outbreak resulting from the quarantine breaches. They made a plan, they made it clear, they implemented it, they enforced it, they set clear targets, and they are meeting those targets. They are on TV every day with updates. It's working.
Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 09:23
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! This one is subscriber only at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.
I read your first link. Don't have subscription to read the second.

Lets go through the original quote that I replied to again:
When the hotel quarantine began I did read somewhere that the proposition was put by someone that farming the guard duty to the security industry, rather than the ADF, was seen as a plus plus [that is reported] by Labor [nope by public servant/bureaucrat], giving employment to some of the populous who were already under the gun [conceded in first point], and currying favour with the union responsible for the security industry [none of the reports mention this. Actually one reports says the union was against Unified getting the contract], who it was said was "powerful" [but not powerful enough to influence who got the contract?].

I read the original lines as saying "those Labor politicians and their union mates have stuffed everyone up just to take care of the union mates". I pointed out that the private security industry exhibits the polar opposite characteristics of being strongly unionised. I also said that the typical "Labor + union" bashing is unsurprising from the Murdoch press. Nowhere did I comment on the general conduct of the Victorian government or whether their plan or action was good or bad.

From your link:
The appointment of Unified proved controversial because, unlike Wilson and MSS, it was not on the government’s preferred panel of security suppliers. Despite this, Unified ended up doing the bulk of the hotel quarantine work.
So both the government and the union did not prefer that company win the contract. So how is it "Labor + union" fault that they were hired (which was the sentiment I read into the post I originally replied to)?

PS: I am in general agreement with Derfred's post with minor differences (eg I think QLD border closure issue is magnified too much and unfairly compared with WA border closure which is absolute. It was only last week that SA and Tas opened their borders to NSW). But it is a difficult game the states are playing with their borders. It is not just the cases you know about, it is also trying to quantify the unknown cases floating around plus the risk posed by people who deliberately disobey the rules. That was why the other states slammed their borders shut against Queensland after the three women sneaked in from Melbourne. It wasn't the four known cases, it was the tens of unknown possible transmissions from them wandering around for 10 days. And once the number of cases gets away from you, it is an order of magnitude more difficult to reel it back. So it is understandable for states to be risk adverse.

Last edited by cee cee; 1st Oct 2020 at 10:14. Reason: adding PS:
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 09:45
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Derfred and others, there is something so simple about Quarantine that seems to be going over everyone’s head and finally resulted in today’s takeover by Victorian Police. It is very simple: people don’t want to be in quarantine! Quarantine, no matter how you put it, is a form of incarceration, period. People hate it.

As practiced before air travel was invented, your ship was anchored in a designated quarantine anchorage and flight was not possible. You were marooned unless you thought you might escape sharks and drowning. The Quarantine station at Point Nepean still exists as a national park. complete with cemetery and crematorium. You stayed in Quarantine until the disease had worked its course and you either lived or died, but you weren’t getting off, period (there was a hospital but you get the drift).

Fast. forward to 2020 - private security guards who can’t use deadly force let alone any force. Visits to shopping centers, pass out, girlfriends, prostitutes. IF YOU ARE QUARANTINED YOU DO NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH ANYBODY!!!


Why is this so hard to understand for you ******* milllenials? We now have over 700 dead and billions of dollars in costs because you *7^&wits don’t understand that quarantine means total isolation!!!

For f&8&* sake put barbed wire around the hotel, machine gun nests at each corner manned by the ADF, and treat quarantine as it was designed to be implemented, not as some “optional life style choice”.

Rant terminated.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 13:09
  #48 (permalink)  
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+ 1 Sunfish
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 22:17
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Derfred and others, there is something so simple about Quarantine that seems to be going over everyone’s head and finally resulted in today’s takeover by Victorian Police. It is very simple: people don’t want to be in quarantine! Quarantine, no matter how you put it, is a form of incarceration, period. People hate it.

As practiced before air travel was invented, your ship was anchored in a designated quarantine anchorage and flight was not possible. You were marooned unless you thought you might escape sharks and drowning. The Quarantine station at Point Nepean still exists as a national park. complete with cemetery and crematorium. You stayed in Quarantine until the disease had worked its course and you either lived or died, but you weren’t getting off, period (there was a hospital but you get the drift).

Fast. forward to 2020 - private security guards who can’t use deadly force let alone any force. Visits to shopping centers, pass out, girlfriends, prostitutes. IF YOU ARE QUARANTINED YOU DO NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH ANYBODY!!!


Why is this so hard to understand for you ******* milllenials? We now have over 700 dead and billions of dollars in costs because you *7^&wits don’t understand that quarantine means total isolation!!!

For f&8&* sake put barbed wire around the hotel, machine gun nests at each corner manned by the ADF, and treat quarantine as it was designed to be implemented, not as some “optional life style choice”.

Rant terminated.
Its not just the milennials that dont get it,obviously the captain as in the bloody idiot premier doesnt either.
Why for f sake would you have security guards still working in a quarantine hotel after what has happened over the past few months.What planet is he living on.
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 11:28
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish just nailed it, a stupid half arsed system brought in by the VIC government for quarantine, don’t forget Kennet gutted the health service and centralised it and made it ripe for a pandemic, the weakest link is always exposed. That’s why it has never got away in other States, they have local based services not a gutted crap VIC system.
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 14:25
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Derfred and others...
I’m quite tickled that you think I’m a millennial! I’m not sure what part of my post led you to that assumption, but thank you. I feel younger already...

I thought I made it pretty clear that I considered the VIC hotel quarantine an enormous fail, and I think I used the words “water tight” when I referred to quarantine requirements. I didn’t go so far as to specify the caliber of automatic weapons required and the gauge of the barbed wire - I will leave that to the experts. Otherwise, recognising that exaggeration is your preferred technique when making a point, I agree with it. Actually, I thought I already had.
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 18:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! This one is subscriber only at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.



Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!
Originally Posted by Keg View Post
How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! This one is subscriber only at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.



Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...emic_in_Taiwan

Totally agree Keg, the arrogance and ineptitude displayed by those who are (allegedly) there to protect and serve, is at times breathtaking as is indeed some of the absolute nonsense that has been posted on this thread.

They appear to think that there is nothing to be gained or learned from others, especially from insignificant little places like Taiwan! Sorry, chinese Taipei, lest someone gets upset, or worse, offended! What they have achieved is impressive in my opinion. Taiwan’s total deaths remain at 7 with total cases just over 500.


https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/...g-total-to-514
H

Total land mass
Taiwan 35,808 km² - pop 23m
Tasmania 64,519 km², pop 524k
Australia 149 450 000 km² pop 25m

Lot's and lot's gets lost in the noise............


Australian experts are now saying Victorians should be wearing face masks, after a recent resurgence of the novel coronavirus in Melbourne and surrounding areas has forced the state to go into lockdown again.
"Early on in the crisis, there was a widespread opinion that they offered little protection to the general punter. For those in regular close contact with COVID cases they did offer important protection," says Dr Sam Hay.


Perhaps there just weren't enough mask to supply our front line medical staff, let alone the general public? How do you think that the masses might have reacted had the above little piece been published in February instead of July?


Health minister how many face masks do we have in stock? Well Premier we are still wainting for the next shipment to arrive from ............. FFS! 😔😮🤬
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Old 10th Oct 2020, 12:25
  #53 (permalink)  
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Credlin..
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Old 10th Oct 2020, 12:26
  #54 (permalink)  
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and again...

Good to see someone taking it up to the Chairman
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Old 10th Oct 2020, 19:33
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fl610 View Post
Australia 149 450 000 km² pop 25m
I don't really get your point anyway but you're out by a factor of 20 or so on the land mass.
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Old 11th Oct 2020, 04:38
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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They're working to the Fawlty Towers script, particularly the line "Please, please try to understand, before one of us die". 809 and counting too late.

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Old 11th Oct 2020, 21:01
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vne165 View Post
and again...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQFrt5bBDfA

Good to see someone taking it up to the Chairman
Yes absolutely perfect,she knew all the facts on how Crisp should be doing his job & what his responsibilities are/were.
Hopefully she doesnt let up with her determination.
The punters who are criticising her for being rude & not having any respect need to get out from under their rock & look at what he has done to the state,his time has yet to come,Mikakos hasnt finished yet.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 11:08
  #58 (permalink)  
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Credlin again today. Thank goodness.
He's wriggling on the sharp end of the skewer now, and will be for long jump soon I think.
She is forthright, to the point, bold, courageous and indefatigable.
This is what journalists should have done, and should be doing.
Carry on.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 11:46
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vne165 View Post
Credlin again today. Thank goodness.
He's wriggling on the sharp end of the skewer now, and will be for long jump soon I think.
She is forthright, to the point, bold, courageous and indefatigable.
This is what journalists should have done, and should be doing.
Carry on.
Agree 100%.

My question is, where are the so called journalists our taxpayer funded $1bn+ pay for on the total joke that is known as the ABC?

Pathetic. ABC needs to be de-funded immediately.
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Old 12th Oct 2020, 12:09
  #60 (permalink)  
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