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Covid Air NZ

Old 10th Aug 2020, 11:47
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Covid Air NZ

The initial Covid hardships of Air NZ were announced to be "through no fault of our own", despite them being one of the two ways for Covid to enter into New Zealand at the time (airline or ship), cough, however now with the airline transporting new international arrivals to their quarantine alternative city outside Auckland it seems Air NZ cannot of course be found at fault again at all. Rose coloured tinted glasses anyone?
The flights have sparked concern from an Air NZ crew member, who fears it will “only be a matter of time” before a flight attendant catches Covid-19 from one of the passengers and becomes a source of community transmission.
Crew raise fears over Auckland-to-Wellington managed isolation flights
Air NZ now rostering separate crews for A320 international and domestic flights
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 12:00
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I'm surprised they have taken that long to do this. And is it enough - it is even more preferable to not mix crew within a fleet. ie. Create a crew and keep them as one crew so as far as practical for a few weeks. That will stop one positive crew member taking out multiple crews.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 20:51
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The "Concerned Crew member" could of opted out of the flight if they were so concerned, but running to Media gets more likes on Social media I guess.

Air NZ are doing what the MOH tell them. That's why crew are getting jabbed up the nose multiple times per roster and locking themselves in Hotel rooms... on both ends of a TOD.
But hey, if the local PPRuNe Virologists think they know better then by all means, ask Ashley Bloomfield if he wants a break and step up.
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Old 10th Aug 2020, 22:15
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What a bizarre post all round??? “Rose-tinted glasses anyone” - more like the most tin foil-hatted, tenuous attempt to link one airline to a virus sweeping the globe that you ever will see. The word facile comes to mind....
The link to an article dated July 3 really tops it off (take note CS) - as you say Zilch, I guess less “likes” with an actually supported argument.

So far; one confirmed case of pax to cabin crew transmission ON an aircraft. In the world. Ever.
Last AirNZ crew positive - April. Before the current measures were in place, and before the airline world truely came to a halt.

Rational risk analysis glasses anyone?
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 00:02
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But, but, but it’s a scary headline, which means the news website gets more hits, which gets them more advertising too.

Who really cares about the facts that can be hidden when you can get more advertising dollars?

NZ is now a country that is jumping at shadows.
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 05:44
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
If the local PPRuNe Virologists think they know better then by all means, ask Ashley Bloomfield if he wants a break and step up.
I'm not sure if that was a jab at me, but if so, I make no claims to be a PPRunNe Virologist, I was just repeating what various Government health departments, airline manufacturers and dedicated Aviation medical services have said at different times.

Rubberdog - point taken about the date being 5 weeks ago (I didn't note that) but that's not relevant as that recommendation was about well before that. In fact before April in fact when apparently the last ANZ positive CC was.

As I said, it's not just the pax to CC danger - it's mitigating the risk of one crew member being positive (possibly acquired outside of work) taking out multiple crews during interactions in the galley / crew bus / briefing room etc. Some other airlines had done the risk analysis and had implemented this procedure in March / April.

Last edited by compressor stall; 11th Aug 2020 at 07:37. Reason: Added timeline
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 07:13
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But hey, if the local PPRuNe Virologists think they know better then by all means, ask Ashley Bloomfield if he wants a break and step up.
It would be fantastic if people didn't need Ashley Bloomfield to tell them the minimum requirement, and could instead think for themselves and exceed that minimum standard, perhaps even before they were told what it is.
I trust you are not waiting on Mr Bloomfield to tell you to use wipes in the cockpit?

Interesting that change one crew member for another is seen as a solution.
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 12:02
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Well the science says lockdowns don’t prevent spread of covid19 and indications are that lockdowns actually exacerbate the spread...and I just listened to Ashley send us back into level 3. So obviously science doesn’t inform his decisions
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 14:06
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
Well the science says lockdowns don’t prevent spread of covid19 and indications are that lockdowns actually exacerbate the spread...and I just listened to Ashley send us back into level 3. So obviously science doesn’t inform his decisions
How do lockdowns exacerbate the spread??
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 05:09
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Mattyj, I would love to see your reference for that. Perhaps that latest cultivation was a bit strong.


Well Elzilcho, it would seem someone in Air NZ did wake up and decide to exceed the minimum beyond Mr Bloomfield. Well done. Lets hope they can think of more.

Masks mandatory on Air NZ as Auckland locks down


Air New Zealand will for the first time force all passengers departing Auckland to wear masks, following news the city will re-enter lockdown for three days.

The airline also announced seats will now be kept free between travelling groups, food and drink will not be served on board, and lounges and valet parking will close.

On Tuesday, New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced the Auckland region would re-enter an ‘alert level 3’ lockdown from Wednesday at midday due to four new COVID-19 cases being identified, with people back to working from home and gatherings of more than 10 people banned.

The rest of the country will face lighter ‘alert level 2’ restrictions, which will limit mass gatherings to 100 people and see the return of social distancing.

Air New Zealand chief executive Greg Foran said, “Customers are welcome to bring their own masks, otherwise these will be provided by the airline once on board. We’re also encouraging customers travelling from other ports to consider wearing a mask, however this is not compulsory.”

Previously, during the height of the pandemic in April, the airline’s staff wore masks but passengers were not required to.

Recently, the business has said customers are simply “welcome to bring” their own. In contrast, Auckland Airport itself has said the wearing of masks isn’t mandatory in the terminal but simply “strongly recommended”.

Local publication Stuff previously reported that the national advice around face masks for air travel was that they were neither required nor discouraged.

Air New Zealand’s other changes include:
  •  
    • Asking all of its front of house employees to wear gloves and masks;
    • Closing every second check-in kiosk at larger airports;
    • Reinstating social distancing at check-in desks via floor stickers;
    • Keeping middle seats free between groups;
    • Slowing down boarding and disembarking;
    • Removing in-flight magazine Kia Ora;
    • Shutting lounges and valet parking;
    • Stopping food and beverage services; and
    • Stopping the distribution of in-flight lollies.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 05:38
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
Mattyj, I would love to see your reference for that. Perhaps that latest cultivation was a bit strong.


Well Elzilcho, it would seem someone in Air NZ did wake up and decide to exceed the minimum beyond Mr Bloomfield. Well done. Lets hope they can think of more.

Masks mandatory on Air NZ as Auckland locks down
Actually it is a requirement set down in Level 3 by the government advised by Dr Bloomfield.
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 10:15
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lockdowns don’t work..
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 14:28
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
lockdowns don’t work..
But where's the evidence/indication that lockdowns may actually exacerbate the spread?
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Old 12th Aug 2020, 23:10
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
It would be fantastic if people didn't need Ashley Bloomfield to tell them the minimum requirement, and could instead think for themselves and exceed that minimum standard, perhaps even before they were told what it is.
I trust you are not waiting on Mr Bloomfield to tell you to use wipes in the cockpit?

Interesting that change one crew member for another is seen as a solution.
​​​​​​
Air NZ management have been in frequent meetings with MOH for several months now and in several occasions had actually implemented procedures over and above what the MOH were advocating. In some instances, those procedures were than adopted by MOH into their official guidelines for all Air Crew.

You of course, won't find that in a stuff.co.nz article.

I have no idea who you fly for or what your beef is with Air NZ, but it would seem there are some members of the populace who won't be happy until all Airlines are grounded and their staff unemployed. It doesn't matter what the Airlines do, someone like yourself will come along, no doubt with a degree from the University of youtube, and say they should of done more.

Replacing a Crew member is not a mitigation for COVID 19, don't attempt to mince my words. Any Crew member who is not comfortable operating has been given the ability to opt-out under the circumstances.
So long as Aircraft are operating, Citizens allowed to return home and Global freight still being shipped, there is a Risk of COVID. That risk cannot be eliminated entirely. Either accept it, or take the day off work. Running to the media accomplishes nothing except to feed the panic and fear the Media so enjoy spreading.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 07:20
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The sooner we all realise Covid -19 is here to stay the better - it ain't going anywhere. We cannot eradicate it, and until a safe vaccine is readily available - we'll need to live with Covid -19 and do all we can to protect ourselves and others. The economic impact of a further lockdown is going to be apocalyptic for many NZ businesses - the Govt have some hard calls to make.

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Old 13th Aug 2020, 08:01
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Originally Posted by propaganda View Post
The sooner we all realise Covid -19 is here to stay the better - it ain't going anywhere. We cannot eradicate it, and until a safe vaccine is readily available - we'll need to live with Covid -19 and do all we can to protect ourselves and others. The economic impact of a further lockdown is going to be apocalyptic for many NZ businesses - the Govt have some hard calls to make.
At last - some common sense!
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 08:24
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Elzilho, one minute its the minimums from MOH that AirNZ adhere to and god forbid anything more, and it has to be a virologist to know better, to now ANZ does know bettter than Bloomfield to go beyond, and have virologists apparently working for you, which is it?
Clearly going to the media did cause the company to make changes and seperate crew from international and domestic duties.
Yes there is a risk, and people at the coal-face make suggestions on how to reduce that risk. Just because management did not think of it doesn't make it inherently wrong in the first instance.
So quick to make it personal as you have done before on here, is that your only way to debate? I am not sure why you seek to be so controlling and use such a bully tactic. This is a internet forum not your place of work and you have no authority over me. Air NZ operates in the public arena and as such are open to scrutiny just as are politicians and the like, and there will not be a barrier to that scrutiny on PPRuNe just because you don't like it.

Mattyj, the article talks about the policy of lockdowns -that different countries did 'lockdown' differently, and includes economic effects. That the USA needs to change its policy as the way it did an attempted lockdown did not work. What would be considered a lockdown for USA might not be what we in NZ would call a lockdown. Also, some countries were unprepared and did their lockdowns much later rather than early. Incorporating these other factors sees some lockdowns considered a 'failure' by the Economic Research website. Some of that reference graph data does not give % proportion of the population but instead total number of deaths which is misleading. The first case graphs are also meaningless, a lockdown is about preventing the spread.

Last edited by DeltaT; 13th Aug 2020 at 12:16.
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 22:10
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
Elzilho, one minute its the minimums from MOH that AirNZ adhere to and god forbid anything more, and it has to be a virologist to know better, to now ANZ does know bettter than Bloomfield to go beyond, and have virologists apparently working for you, which is it?
Clearly going to the media did cause the company to make changes and seperate crew from international and domestic duties.
Yes there is a risk, and people at the coal-face make suggestions on how to reduce that risk. Just because management did not think of it doesn't make it inherently wrong in the first instance.
So quick to make it personal as you have done before on here, is that your only way to debate? I am not sure why you seek to be so controlling and use such a bully tactic. This is a internet forum not your place of work and you have no authority over me. Air NZ operates in the public arena and as such are open to scrutiny just as are politicians and the like, and there will not be a barrier to that scrutiny on PPRuNe just because you don't like it.
It's neither and it's both. Take your pick.
The Airline and MOH have been in collaboration for months to keep the supply chains open (Air Freight, Returning Citizens) while managing the risks associated with COVID. The point is, information is being freely exchanged between the two, many of which you wont read in the Newspaper. I've honestly lost count how many times the procedures have been modified over the last few months.
During this period, some CC (including Union reps) have taken it upon themselves to leak information to the Media, often distorting the details and/or lacking proper context in a misguided attempt to save Jobs. So much so in fact, that the Pilot unions (and possibly the engineers) have distanced themselves from the CC. I feel for them, I really do, but they've done themselves more harm than good.

Interestingly enough, in my last refresher course (done during COVID), one of the topics was Decompression and the effects of Hypoxia... time of useful consciousness all that jazz. One of the Videos we got to watch was in an Altitude Chamber with an explosive decompression at altitude. Even though he knew it was coming, and his mask was right in front of him, he failed to get it on in time. Obviously a Domestic COVID flight will be at a lower altitude, especially the T-Props, but what effect does "Full PPE" have on a Crew's ability to perform their duties in the event of an emergency? Has it been tested? Beware law of unintended consequences... nothing exists in a Vacuum, unless it's Media windup.

Separating International and Domestic CC sounds great for the papers to appease the Court of Public opinion. In practice however, what exactly has it accomplished? Those international CC cannot operate a Domestic duty following an international one, but they can go shopping at the local mall because, reasons? This of course leads into the old "Crew should be stood down for 14 days" argument. But we know, that would simply lead to the operation not being viable and further jobs lost. Some say that doesn't matter "Lives before Profit". But we also know you cannot legally prevent a Citizen from returning home... so if Air NZ don't bring em in, the Chinese carriers will. Then what? Can't keep them all in Auckland, so we'll go from COVID flights to COVID busses.... do we then stand the Bus Drivers down for 14 days?
Border Staff and Quarantine Facility staff, who are arguably at a higher risk of COVID than Crew haven't been getting tested and have avoided scrutiny by the media because...they're not Air NZ so no one cares? Only now that COVID is back in the Community have lapses in procedures and testing at these facilities comes to light. Do these workers have to isolate for 14 days after a shift? Or do they go back home to their families and the local community in the same manner Crew do because precautions are being taken?

Honestly, I have no time for people who start threads and bash an Airline (any Airline) on the basis of click baity media articles full of half truths and no context. These are the same "journalists" who love to talk about Aircraft "plummeting" and Pax "fearing for the lives" everytime we take-off. As Pilots, we can usually through this nonsense so why should COVID be any different?
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Old 13th Aug 2020, 23:13
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Spot on ElZilcho.

Is anyone who has operated Internationally recently honestly surprised by these latest revelations re Border staff etc? Whilst we have been contending with the constant change in MoH guidelines (rightly so) only this week have they mandated asymptomatic testing of front line staff at the airport.

Elephant in the corner of room etc.....
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Old 14th Aug 2020, 23:31
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
It's neither and it's both. Take your pick.
The Airline and MOH have been in collaboration for months to keep the supply chains open (Air Freight, Returning Citizens) while managing the risks associated with COVID. The point is, information is being freely exchanged between the two, many of which you wont read in the Newspaper. I've honestly lost count how many times the procedures have been modified over the last few months.
During this period, some CC (including Union reps) have taken it upon themselves to leak information to the Media, often distorting the details and/or lacking proper context in a misguided attempt to save Jobs. So much so in fact, that the Pilot unions (and possibly the engineers) have distanced themselves from the CC. I feel for them, I really do, but they've done themselves more harm than good.

Interestingly enough, in my last refresher course (done during COVID), one of the topics was Decompression and the effects of Hypoxia... time of useful consciousness all that jazz. One of the Videos we got to watch was in an Altitude Chamber with an explosive decompression at altitude. Even though he knew it was coming, and his mask was right in front of him, he failed to get it on in time. Obviously a Domestic COVID flight will be at a lower altitude, especially the T-Props, but what effect does "Full PPE" have on a Crew's ability to perform their duties in the event of an emergency? Has it been tested? Beware law of unintended consequences... nothing exists in a Vacuum, unless it's Media windup.

Separating International and Domestic CC sounds great for the papers to appease the Court of Public opinion. In practice however, what exactly has it accomplished? Those international CC cannot operate a Domestic duty following an international one, but they can go shopping at the local mall because, reasons? This of course leads into the old "Crew should be stood down for 14 days" argument. But we know, that would simply lead to the operation not being viable and further jobs lost. Some say that doesn't matter "Lives before Profit". But we also know you cannot legally prevent a Citizen from returning home... so if Air NZ don't bring em in, the Chinese carriers will. Then what? Can't keep them all in Auckland, so we'll go from COVID flights to COVID busses.... do we then stand the Bus Drivers down for 14 days?
Border Staff and Quarantine Facility staff, who are arguably at a higher risk of COVID than Crew haven't been getting tested and have avoided scrutiny by the media because...they're not Air NZ so no one cares? Only now that COVID is back in the Community have lapses in procedures and testing at these facilities comes to light. Do these workers have to isolate for 14 days after a shift? Or do they go back home to their families and the local community in the same manner Crew do because precautions are being taken?

Honestly, I have no time for people who start threads and bash an Airline (any Airline) on the basis of click baity media articles full of half truths and no context. These are the same "journalists" who love to talk about Aircraft "plummeting" and Pax "fearing for the lives" everytime we take-off. As Pilots, we can usually through this nonsense so why should COVID be any different?
Eloquent and well put EZ. DeltaT is potentially a disgruntled pilot from an Australian airline stood down or redundant, sitting at home and trying their hardest to read whatever airline news they can get their hands on, which is limited to clickbait articles.

I have personally received screenshots from a VANZ Captain who has been sitting at home for six months... and some of the conspiracies he is now sharing on social media is bewildering. Completely lost touch with reality. Reading all the clickbait as truth. Career spent studying FCOMs and desperate to keep the sane amount of ‘study‘ up.

Perspective is key. And getting accurate information from multiple sources. Keep up god’s work of quashing the bullshot on this forum.
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