Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific
Reload this Page >

QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:01
  #1541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Denmark
Posts: 457
Considering what other airlines have done around the world and even here in our backyard letting crews go. If QF, JQ, or any QF group felt the need to cut cost and do CR wouldn't it have happened already?! holding on to tech crew and cabin crew will allow QF group to come back quickly as demand increases. AJ has an opportunity here if he can hold on to as many as possible there is a void in this neck of the woods which we can capitalize on. Virgin will be smaller for them to keep up with QF they have to re employ the redundant crew not sure how that works but I would think it would include all steps from induction then the type rating for senior redundant WB crew back to NB, thats not as easy as recalling crews off stand down.

Long term stand down still cost the company accruals of certain leave which I am sure most are using quicker than they're accruing anyway it will leave the group with out that over head moving forward. I am sure everyone here can agree on one thing, domestic travel will come back quickly once borders open again especially Victorians (ones that have money at least) wanting to go on a holiday, they have been through hell. International will go off with a bang once that is allowed Aussies love traveling and they cant wait to.
Ragnor is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:16
  #1542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Darwin
Posts: 13
When a company enters administration, the board looses control of the airline and the executive are effectively under control of the administrator to run the day to day ops. Usually, every director including the chairman and the majority of the executive loose their jobs. Itís a last resort for the board for this reason. No one wants to loose their job. Iím sure we can all relate to that at the moment. Virgin are an exception because Scurrah is widely seen as a good ceo who inherited a company in need of a turnaround who got unlikely with the timing, so heís probably going to be around to run the recovery.

Can anyone really imagine AJ and rest of them really handing over control of the company that had made them all insanely rich unless itís an absolute last resort?
Overspeed1 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:29
  #1543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Unfortunately not the Orient
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by Overspeed1 View Post
When a company enters administration, the board looses control of the airline and the executive are effectively under control of the administrator to run the day to day ops. Usually, every director including the chairman and the majority of the executive loose their jobs. Itís a last resort for the board for this reason. No one wants to loose their job. Iím sure we can all relate to that at the moment. Virgin are an exception because Scurrah is widely seen as a good ceo who inherited a company in need of a turnaround who got unlikely with the timing, so heís probably going to be around to run the recovery.

Can anyone really imagine AJ and rest of them really handing over control of the company that had made them all insanely rich unless itís an absolute last resort?
Yes. To suggest QF are going to place themselves, voluntarily into admistration so they can rewrite a few contracts is so far wide of the mark, its almost laughable. Seems more like wishful thinking from the usual suspects.
SandyPalms is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 08:43
  #1544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 565
Well lets throw open the hard questions for debate then. At no time have I suggested QF will go into receivership, in fact I'll go on record as saying that is highly unlikely.
I fail to see how I'm scaremongering, I have no vested interest either way, I hope the national carrier survives and I'm sure it will, but not what it was. It's in a better position than virgin and that good be it's saving grace.
I am on record as saying, do nothing with respect to decisions until jobkeeper ends.

I don't see airline demand being much greater that 50% domestically and 20% Internationally for the next 4 to 5 years, happy to debate that, but IMHO that's a reasonable forecast, given we haven't even started to recover from covid and there's still a couple of years of deep recession to weather yet.

Now put yourself in the CEO's position, optimism aside, what do you do with 50% of your staff you don't need for the next few years. Lets see which are viable solutions.

Xeptu is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:03
  #1545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Well lets throw open the hard questions for debate then. At no time have I suggested QF will go into receivership, in fact I'll go on record as saying that is highly unlikely.
I fail to see how I'm scaremongering, I have no vested interest either way, I hope the national carrier survives and I'm sure it will, but not what it was. It's in a better position than virgin and that good be it's saving grace.
I am on record as saying, do nothing with respect to decisions until jobkeeper ends.

I don't see airline demand being much greater that 50% domestically and 20% Internationally for the next 4 to 5 years, happy to debate that, but IMHO that's a reasonable forecast, given we haven't even started to recover from covid and there's still a couple of years of deep recession to weather yet.

Now put yourself in the CEO's position, optimism aside, what do you do with 50% of your staff you don't need for the next few years. Lets see which are viable solutions.
<50% domestically in 4-5 years

crikey man we had that for a blip just recently

if vaccine doesn't come soon a natural adjustment will occur imo
maggot is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:38
  #1546 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,341
Originally Posted by normanton View Post

Yes votes in a referendum from NSW + VIC alone would out number No votes from WA + NT + SA + QLD + TAS.
Normanton, first you hadnít read one of the most important sections of the LHEA relating to CR despite many significant comments on the issue, and now you demonstrate your lack of knowledge as to how referendums work.

They require a majority of voters in a majority of states. Itís very possible for NSW and VIC (and other yes voters in other states) to dwarf the Ďnoí vote but unless the majority of states are carried for the affirmative the constitutional amendment is voted down. There have been five occasions when the Ďyesí vote was in the majority when considered nationally but the states were not and hence the amendment didnít get up.
Keg is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:36
  #1547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Interesting Keg. I guess we can put that Facebook news post to bed then.

For what it's worth, I asked the question about minimum 26 weeks as there is talk it doesn't apply to SO's who are still in the probation period (have to complete 4 recurrent simulators - about 150 of them).
normanton is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 10:52
  #1548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 309
Being well read you will have absorbed the appropriate FWA information regarding Probationary Employment. To summarise though, Probation is something you pass or otherwise. It is not relevant to the redundancy provisions in the way you’re suggesting where a downturn would allow the company to effectively dismiss such employees with less entitlements than prescribed in an agreement. More uninformed crap.

If you have been in the company less than 12 months there are different rules though which those people would be advised to research. For clarity, I do not know whether the EBA provisions would apply in lieu of other FWA legislation in this instance. Stand down provisions did....so....I’m sure the answer is out there.

Last edited by crosscutter; 23rd Aug 2020 at 11:18.
crosscutter is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 11:55
  #1549 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,341
Not being employed post probation as a result of your actions resulting in the company saying ‘nyet’ is a very different thing to your position becoming redundant. I suspect AIPA legal would be able to answer that one pretty quickly.
Keg is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 12:54
  #1550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 454
Whats the backup plan if internal borders stay closed? Business leaders will next push for the PM to hold an urgent referendum on a vote to become a republic. A president elect will then have the power to dissolve states, and the power states have over their own borders.

Yes votes in a referendum from NSW + VIC alone would out number No votes from WA + NT + SA + QLD + TAS.
Lets hope business leaders have a better grasp of how the Constitution and the Australian political system works.
Lookleft is online now  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 13:39
  #1551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
The more you think about it the more stand down is going to cost

With regard to annual increments etc it all adds up

Also if someone does return from CR (& clearly you would expect QF to follow through & you be first employed)

Sure your seniority number is restored but you would go back to year one wages on SO (?) , that is going to be a big hit if all LH since 2106 have
departed & it goes back to 2009 & further back
Telfer86 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 13:51
  #1552 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,341
Telfer, are you in Qantas? The answers to the points you have raised are in the LHEA.

The award states that any pilot made CR is put on the ‘redundancy list’ and re-employed when Qantas re-commences recruiting. It’s not a matter of ‘you would expect’, Qantas is bound by the LHEA to do so.

Further, the LHEA also states that you don’t go back to year 1 rates but instead pick up where you left off. So any pilot employed in 2009 who may be made CR (as highly unlikely as it is) would return on year 11 pay.

So yes, Qantas will save the yearly increments by making someone CR but as already stated, it takes 3 1/2 years of stand down to equate to the minimum 6 month payout.
Keg is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 14:04
  #1553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere on the Australian Coast
Posts: 914
The last couple of days on this thread have been chock full of teachable moments. Thanks Keg.
DirectAnywhere is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 15:40
  #1554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
Well maybe I am missing something

It says resume relative position on seniority list - got that

But that can occur with you being a year 1 employee ? or can't it ?

The number gets preserved but how can you be a 8 , 12 whatever year employee ? when you have just started

Agreed great teaching

I still reckon they would be within their rights to do some test /interview kind of stuff before re-employment
Telfer86 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 16:03
  #1555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 101
QF just raised $1.4bn of fresh equity. No chance of QF going into administration in the next 18 months. Plus it has lots of assets it can still monetise.

The real question is not if QF will survive, but what the new QF will look like.

Domestic should return in the new year. The question mark is international. But QF doesnt need international to survive. It could cut off the international business and would be a very profitable airline in the future. When international will be back is any ones guess at the moment. Lots of crystal balls working overtime.

The support inside the individual states outside NSW and Vic for keeping border restrictions in place runs as high as 90%. Anyone is dreaming if they think any State leader is going to ignore this. Even the Feds cant ignore this. Threats and legal cases will only serve to make people more determined to be protective. Plus no one wants to be the party everyone is pointing the finger for any new outbreak. So a negotiated outcome is the best solution. Get the case numbers down and negotiate with the individual states.

Get Trump out of the White House to sort out the problems in the USA. The world could do with a steady hand at the wheel,

CamelSquadron is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 17:36
  #1556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
Just trying to get my head around the current travel restrictions

The "unrestricted" states/territories are NT/SA/QLD/NT/Tas , then WA off to the side a bit

You can travel unrestricted through them except WA won't allow inbound residents of NT/SA/Tas/QLD (unless the "important" person/govt/mil stuff)

But the WA people could for example got for a holiday in Cairns & go back home no problems

Victorians can't go anywhere but everyone big welcome, NSW/ACT all welcome except Victorians (but then you won't be able to return home or have to quarantine)

So the theory in WA is not to segment the country, they will open when all is open ? (said from day 1 ?). Or just protect the economy first priority - don't need the tourist dollar so much

It would really be hard to dream up a bigger train wreck for domestic airlines

Telfer86 is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 21:33
  #1557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 78
Posts: 218
Tefler86.
From what I am reading on WA Gov. Dept. Health's website not even WA Citizens can reenter WA during the border closure.
The ONLY persons allowed to enter WA are covered under the " persons exempt " list and Travel outside of the State by a Citizen of WA and return from a Holiday is not one of the exempt persons .
Domestic Airline Travel is rather chaotic ATM and will remain so until at least end of the year , maybe some easing for Xmas Holidays.
RodH is offline  
Old 23rd Aug 2020, 22:34
  #1558 (permalink)  
Keg

Nunc est bibendum
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,341
Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
Well maybe I am missing something

It says resume relative position on seniority list - got that

But that can occur with you being a year 1 employee ? or can't it ?
If 100 pilots are made CR but due to some being on LWOP it extends up to a couple of hundred off the bottom, when they all return to work, they all go back to their relative seniority numbers to each other. No one gets to jump anyone else.

It works the same now when a pilot who was medically retired is able to get their medical back in 3-5 years time. They too go back to their previous seniority in terms of relative to everyone else. So if the person immediately senior to me medically retires and then comes back three years later they return to being immediately senior to me. This is as it has been for decades now.

Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post

The number gets preserved but how can you be a 8 , 12 whatever year employee ? when you have just started
It depends on what youíre talking about. Pay scales are within the LHEA and for those you return to your previous yearly increment. It may seem that youíre only a year 0 employee but the LHEA is the thing that says you return to year 3, 4, 7, or 12 depending on what increment you were on when you were CRíd.

Iím not sure what it would say for stuff like staff travel and so on but thatís a pretty minor issue in the greater scheme of thing.

Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
I still reckon they would be within their rights to do some test /interview kind of stuff before re-employment
Even Qantas has said that theyíre not looking at doing any re-testing, just some sort of Ďon boardingí process that would include a sit down chat.
Keg is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 02:35
  #1559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 565
Highest level of respect to you Keg. Clearly you have been around as long as me, know your way around an EBA and understand what you're talking about.

My question to you is, how confident are you that the company will follow the terms of the EBA instead of the logical thing, set aside the EBA and make redundant all those pilots not needed right now or in the foreseeable future, when it becomes necessary.

I don't expect you to answer that question publicly.
Xeptu is offline  
Old 24th Aug 2020, 03:09
  #1560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post

how confident are you that the company will follow the terms of the EBA instead of the logical thing, set aside the EBA and make redundant all those pilots not needed right now or in the foreseeable future, when it becomes necessary.
As has been explained on this thread numerous times before, the existing stand down provisions in current EBAs are being used to deal with the pilots not needed right now or in the immediate future. Any surplus in the long term was taken care of via the high uptake of VR and the use of early retirement. That is the logical thing, not these mass redundancies youíve fear mongered yourself into believing are inevitable.


dr dre is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.