QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,203
The Vr package for a Captain on the 747 is nowhere near $400,000 after tax. For a 35 year Captain the tax free component is $203,349. Min guarantee is 1040 hours at approx $330 an hour $343,200 minus the $203,349 leaves $139,851 at your marginal tax rate.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,322
If the VR was you’re only income for the year tax on $139K is $39K. So closer to $300K after tax.
To go back to B&Blue’s comments, I can’t see myself clearing that amount of money in the next two years. I’ll consider it a win if I clear that amount in the next three! That takes them to 64. Betting big on that last 12 months!
To go back to B&Blue’s comments, I can’t see myself clearing that amount of money in the next two years. I’ll consider it a win if I clear that amount in the next three! That takes them to 64. Betting big on that last 12 months!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 334
Actually I’m very interested in this ‘variabilisation’ thing.
When you don’t actually know what you’re talking about then just make something up.
Common thought is that it refers to a reduction in MGH. How will that save money?
I’m guessing that those stood up are flying to, or at least planning on flying, MGH. So why the need to reduce it?
What if after January when the feds lift international travel bans that QF are forced to stand everyone up?
A lot less costly if everyone is on reduced MGH?
Is that ‘variabilisation’?
I guess at least people will be stood up?
When you don’t actually know what you’re talking about then just make something up.
Common thought is that it refers to a reduction in MGH. How will that save money?
I’m guessing that those stood up are flying to, or at least planning on flying, MGH. So why the need to reduce it?
What if after January when the feds lift international travel bans that QF are forced to stand everyone up?
A lot less costly if everyone is on reduced MGH?
Is that ‘variabilisation’?
I guess at least people will be stood up?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Someplace else
Age: 37
Posts: 1,367
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I heard something rather profound yesterday.
Get a 1 metre ruler and assume each centimetre is equal to a year. Assuming you get to close to 100 years before curtains, how many centimetres have you got left? My bet is nowhere near enough.
If you can, take the package and run, go fly something light and fun and real, remember why you got into flying in the first place, remember the smell of 100LL and hot oil. Talk copious amounts of shit in and around hangars. Try and pass on some war stories and knowledge to the beginners, even take them flying. Its an awesome way to waste a weekend, I assure you.
Or go and be a grotty yachtty, bob up and down the east coast living on the smell of an oily rag. Or go and be a grey nomad (but please dont). Or take up woodworking, or cottage gardening. Or write your memoirs, something for your children and grandchildren to read after you’re gone. Or get big dark/reflective glasses and become a professional ornithologist.
I am hopefully, just over a third of my way through and I already feel shortchanged on length (of life that is, well on everything if I’m being honest). I wish you all the best in your decision making, may you make the best decision for a happy life.
j3
Get a 1 metre ruler and assume each centimetre is equal to a year. Assuming you get to close to 100 years before curtains, how many centimetres have you got left? My bet is nowhere near enough.
If you can, take the package and run, go fly something light and fun and real, remember why you got into flying in the first place, remember the smell of 100LL and hot oil. Talk copious amounts of shit in and around hangars. Try and pass on some war stories and knowledge to the beginners, even take them flying. Its an awesome way to waste a weekend, I assure you.
Or go and be a grotty yachtty, bob up and down the east coast living on the smell of an oily rag. Or go and be a grey nomad (but please dont). Or take up woodworking, or cottage gardening. Or write your memoirs, something for your children and grandchildren to read after you’re gone. Or get big dark/reflective glasses and become a professional ornithologist.
I am hopefully, just over a third of my way through and I already feel shortchanged on length (of life that is, well on everything if I’m being honest). I wish you all the best in your decision making, may you make the best decision for a happy life.
j3
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,322
Originally Posted by Wingspar
You go Keg!
It is incumbent on those to forever try to get rid of those more senior.
Trip them over in the terminal or whatever!
I’m with you by the way!
It is incumbent on those to forever try to get rid of those more senior.
Trip them over in the terminal or whatever!
I’m with you by the way!
A lower MGH allows a couple of things in the medium term. In terms of rostering it doesn’t mean much when the divisor sits below ~90 per BP (equivalent to month on, month off). Once the flying increases above about 90/ month on, month off, that’s where a lower divisor of 100, 120, 140 (per 8 week BP) enables things to ramp back up without putting significant additional costs on the business (for which there is no income to cover the additional $$$ to pay everyone 160 when they’re only flying 100, 120, 140, etc).
Of course QF may argue that a lower MGH lowers the cost of AL and LSL accrued with that lower MGH. I’d need to see some serious quid pro quo to consider devaluing any AL or LSL accrued whilst stood down post a variation vote. I’m somewhat ambivalent about what that could look like. Perhaps even equity and various bonuses tied to the CEOs for the next decade or so.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by Keg
MGH lowers the cost of AL and LSL accrued with that lower MGH.
There are plenty of people doing it tough out there at the moment, granted, but this is just a step too far. If you take VR or, heaven forbid, are made CR, then your accrued leave is paid out the full rate. I won’t be able to support a reduction to MGH if it devalues accrued leave.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,322
It depends on what you mean by ‘accrued leave’. The company is on record that any leave currently in your leave bank retains full value. However it appears from reading between the lines on webinars that with a lower MGH, leave accrued in the future with a lower MGH will have a lower value.
Again, it’d have to be a massive quid pro quo to seriously consider this.
Again, it’d have to be a massive quid pro quo to seriously consider this.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 48
Originally Posted by Keg
The company is on record that any leave currently in your leave bank retains full value.
Still, in my humble opinion, being stood down without pay is being pretty darn flexible and allows QF to variablise my cost base enough. On the other hand they could variablise me right out the door so I get that perspective is required.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 334
Originally Posted by Brutus
I must have misheard that, I thought Tino said they would look at it. I’ll take your word for it.
Still, in my humble opinion, being stood down without pay is being pretty darn flexible and allows QF to variablise my cost base enough. On the other hand they could variablise me right out the door so I get that perspective is required.
Still, in my humble opinion, being stood down without pay is being pretty darn flexible and allows QF to variablise my cost base enough. On the other hand they could variablise me right out the door so I get that perspective is required.
You can’t vary your wages bill anymore than stand employees down with no pay.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Keg
It depends on what you mean by ‘accrued leave’. The company is on record that any leave currently in your leave bank retains full value. However it appears from reading between the lines on webinars that with a lower MGH, leave accrued in the future with a lower MGH will have a lower value.
Again, it’d have to be a massive quid pro quo to seriously consider this.
Again, it’d have to be a massive quid pro quo to seriously consider this.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 943
Originally Posted by j3pipercub
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I heard something rather profound yesterday.
Get a 1 metre ruler and assume each centimetre is equal to a year. Assuming you get to close to 100 years before curtains, how many centimetres have you got left? My bet is nowhere near enough.
Get a 1 metre ruler and assume each centimetre is equal to a year. Assuming you get to close to 100 years before curtains, how many centimetres have you got left? My bet is nowhere near enough.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,322
An MGH below 80 doesn’t allow additional chances for flying. It’s only once MGH is between 80 and 160 that it allows additional crew to fly.
The real question is whether the pilot group is prepared to vote for a lower MGH AND to allow training onto a type so that more pilots can get flying.
Again, a lower MGH that devalues future leave accrual would need to be part of a package that includes such considerations.
The real question is whether the pilot group is prepared to vote for a lower MGH AND to allow training onto a type so that more pilots can get flying.
Again, a lower MGH that devalues future leave accrual would need to be part of a package that includes such considerations.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 187
I’m happy to accrue leave at a reduced rate as long as there is a provision on the agreement that when Qantas returns $1 in profit and all current pilots on fleet type are stood up, I then start to accrue my leave at 1.5 times the usual rate until the leave balance returns to what it would have been had I been accruing it normally. Any changes to EBA need to have firm conditions attached. After all we have been stood down now, previously locked out, taken pay freezes, negotiated away conditions on promises that never materialised fully whilst watching executive waste money on fantasy adventure like Jetstar Hong Kong and Red Q, invest in other airlines and take home huge bonuses.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,203
Originally Posted by engine out
I’m happy to accrue leave at a reduced rate as long as there is a provision on the agreement that when Qantas returns $1 in profit and all current pilots on fleet type are stood up, I then start to accrue my leave at 1.5 times the usual rate until the leave balance returns to what it would have been had I been accruing it normally. Any changes to EBA need to have firm conditions attached. After all we have been stood down now, previously locked out, taken pay freezes, negotiated away conditions on promises that never materialised fully whilst watching executive waste money on fantasy adventure like Jetstar Hong Kong and Red Q, invest in other airlines and take home huge bonuses.
Great post hope the majority agree with u, I certainly do
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 993
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,082
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
on a fortnightly basis your/my pay is more like a 90% cut though
more than enough
Last edited by maggot; 1st Aug 2020 at 11:52.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
Air New Zealand is a state owned enterprise that has already been bailed out from bankruptcy once this century by NZ government
If it didn't get a $1000 million or so in 2001 - it wouldn't exist
So not a valid comparison , they did make at least 30% of their pilots compulsory redundant
Difficult to think of any pilots who have lucked out like the top 70 % of Air NZ have , perhaps the workers paradises of Air France & maybe KLM
For everyone else it has been stand downs , furloughs , pay cuts , redundancies both voluntary & compulsory
Some of the post above are incredible in terms of their disconnect from reality , concerns about a quid pro quo if MGH reduced , accrual of annual leave at a lower rate
All so unfair , sounds like the bleating in the loss of night credits in negotiations with Project Sayonara , yes we may as well call it Project Sayonara - it will never happen now
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other
Ollie what routes do you think , that you will be flying in September ? What restrictions do you think the various State & Territory Govts will have in September & why do you think people in Australia would actually get on a domestic aircraft in September ?
So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.
If it didn't get a $1000 million or so in 2001 - it wouldn't exist
So not a valid comparison , they did make at least 30% of their pilots compulsory redundant
Difficult to think of any pilots who have lucked out like the top 70 % of Air NZ have , perhaps the workers paradises of Air France & maybe KLM
For everyone else it has been stand downs , furloughs , pay cuts , redundancies both voluntary & compulsory
Some of the post above are incredible in terms of their disconnect from reality , concerns about a quid pro quo if MGH reduced , accrual of annual leave at a lower rate
All so unfair , sounds like the bleating in the loss of night credits in negotiations with Project Sayonara , yes we may as well call it Project Sayonara - it will never happen now
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other
Ollie what routes do you think , that you will be flying in September ? What restrictions do you think the various State & Territory Govts will have in September & why do you think people in Australia would actually get on a domestic aircraft in September ?
So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.
