QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,340
An MGH below 80 doesn’t allow additional chances for flying. It’s only once MGH is between 80 and 160 that it allows additional crew to fly.
The real question is whether the pilot group is prepared to vote for a lower MGH AND to allow training onto a type so that more pilots can get flying.
Again, a lower MGH that devalues future leave accrual would need to be part of a package that includes such considerations.
The real question is whether the pilot group is prepared to vote for a lower MGH AND to allow training onto a type so that more pilots can get flying.
Again, a lower MGH that devalues future leave accrual would need to be part of a package that includes such considerations.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 189
I’m happy to accrue leave at a reduced rate as long as there is a provision on the agreement that when Qantas returns $1 in profit and all current pilots on fleet type are stood up, I then start to accrue my leave at 1.5 times the usual rate until the leave balance returns to what it would have been had I been accruing it normally. Any changes to EBA need to have firm conditions attached. After all we have been stood down now, previously locked out, taken pay freezes, negotiated away conditions on promises that never materialised fully whilst watching executive waste money on fantasy adventure like Jetstar Hong Kong and Red Q, invest in other airlines and take home huge bonuses.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by engine out
I’m happy to accrue leave at a reduced rate as long as there is a provision on the agreement that when Qantas returns $1 in profit and all current pilots on fleet type are stood up, I then start to accrue my leave at 1.5 times the usual rate until the leave balance returns to what it would have been had I been accruing it normally. Any changes to EBA need to have firm conditions attached. After all we have been stood down now, previously locked out, taken pay freezes, negotiated away conditions on promises that never materialised fully whilst watching executive waste money on fantasy adventure like Jetstar Hong Kong and Red Q, invest in other airlines and take home huge bonuses.
Great post hope the majority agree with u, I certainly do
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 993
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
on a fortnightly basis your/my pay is more like a 90% cut though
more than enough
Last edited by maggot; 1st Aug 2020 at 12:52.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sydney
Age: 40
Posts: 78
Air New Zealand is a state owned enterprise that has already been bailed out from bankruptcy once this century by NZ government
If it didn't get a $1000 million or so in 2001 - it wouldn't exist
So not a valid comparison , they did make at least 30% of their pilots compulsory redundant
Difficult to think of any pilots who have lucked out like the top 70 % of Air NZ have , perhaps the workers paradises of Air France & maybe KLM
For everyone else it has been stand downs , furloughs , pay cuts , redundancies both voluntary & compulsory
Some of the post above are incredible in terms of their disconnect from reality , concerns about a quid pro quo if MGH reduced , accrual of annual leave at a lower rate
All so unfair , sounds like the bleating in the loss of night credits in negotiations with Project Sayonara , yes we may as well call it Project Sayonara - it will never happen now
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other
Ollie what routes do you think , that you will be flying in September ? What restrictions do you think the various State & Territory Govts will have in September & why do you think people in Australia would actually get on a domestic aircraft in September ?
So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.
If it didn't get a $1000 million or so in 2001 - it wouldn't exist
So not a valid comparison , they did make at least 30% of their pilots compulsory redundant
Difficult to think of any pilots who have lucked out like the top 70 % of Air NZ have , perhaps the workers paradises of Air France & maybe KLM
For everyone else it has been stand downs , furloughs , pay cuts , redundancies both voluntary & compulsory
Some of the post above are incredible in terms of their disconnect from reality , concerns about a quid pro quo if MGH reduced , accrual of annual leave at a lower rate
All so unfair , sounds like the bleating in the loss of night credits in negotiations with Project Sayonara , yes we may as well call it Project Sayonara - it will never happen now
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other
Ollie what routes do you think , that you will be flying in September ? What restrictions do you think the various State & Territory Govts will have in September & why do you think people in Australia would actually get on a domestic aircraft in September ?
So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Posts: 993
I have been told I am flying again domestically from September, and yes I am one of the lucky ones so far. I have friends at Ryanair, Easyjet, BA, Air NZ and of course Emirates who all are still getting some form of pay. Air NZ has not used any government money .... yet. Pilots have been made redundant within the Jetstar Group already. It amazes me how willing people are to accept the bulls$&t that gets peddled. Yes it is a disaster for the airlines but to try and cut the leave accrual rates for crew who are already on 0 pay is just callous, yet there are volunteers.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by Telfer86
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40%
Let’s just hope things are not as bleak as you make out!
Slowly, slowly Things will return that much is certain.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
What would you like Ollie? Everyone on 86% wage for the next 3 months before the company goes tits up?
Great idea! Ollie for CEO
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,086
Originally Posted by normanton
NZ company owned by the government with unlimited $, and you're comparing that to a publicly owned company who doesn't have unlimited funds?
What would you like Ollie? Everyone on 86% wage for the next 3 months before the company goes tits up?
Great idea! Ollie for CEO
What would you like Ollie? Everyone on 86% wage for the next 3 months before the company goes tits up?
Great idea! Ollie for CEO
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by Telfer86
You need to get with the program , you have zero international business and probably running at 1 or 2% domestic traffic , very large redundancies are coming to QF mainline , JQ Australia , Qlink & you would be talking 30 to 40% going, just like everyone else. Australian Fed Govt will be extremely cautious about re-opening international & for travel purposes the continent of Australia is effectively 8 different countries now with travel embargoes on each other
So if you have an opportunity to take lwop and protect your position , retrain , re-qualify, move back to a previous profession/vocation, or military do so.
Wait until Allan conducts his next fleet review. My personal opinion is there will be A LOT more redundancy's happening. Want to secure your career? Take LWOP - it's that simple.
The pilots who will be caught with their pants down are those in the 1000-2000 seniority numbers. Good luck all. Tino has given you the option to take control of your future in Qantas, think wisely!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 304
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
You could look at it like this, my last pay from the Qantas group was 28th March, so if I go back flying in September which is looking hopeful that will be 6 months of $0 pay. So I have already taken a 50% pay cut this year, seems like that is more than enough to me. My mate down the road who works for Air NZ hasn't flown since 1st April and has been paid 86% of his wage every month on time with no expectation of work. I find it incredible that Qantas now wants to screw thinks down even tighter.
Also, the fact Air NZ is government owned has nothing to do with the fact pilots are still getting paid. Different industrial laws mean that no one can just be stood down on zero pay.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Correct Slezy.
If the LH EBA didn't have stand down provisions in the EBA, everyone would be on full base pay and we would have had 500 redundancy's 3 months ago.
Nah I get the point. Ollie isn't happy with the company going after AL. If your not happy with it, stay stood down. But don't get caught with your pants down when the CR hammer comes a swinging. Deer in the headlights.
If the LH EBA didn't have stand down provisions in the EBA, everyone would be on full base pay and we would have had 500 redundancy's 3 months ago.
Originally Posted by maggot
its hard to get his point when youre intentionally trying to miss it
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by normanton
The pilots who will be caught with their pants down are those in the 1000-2000 seniority numbers.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by normanton
Correct Slezy.
If the LH EBA didn't have stand down provisions in the EBA, everyone would be on full base pay and we would have had 500 redundancy's 3 months ago.
If the LH EBA didn't have stand down provisions in the EBA, everyone would be on full base pay and we would have had 500 redundancy's 3 months ago.
It’s quite the pickle for the company as well as the crew.
To add to the math, many of these crew would need about a week in the sim & on the line to fly the Maggot again. Putting further doubt to the companies claim that SH wouldn’t be touched. Much cheaper to get rid of a 1-3yr service SH FO via CR. The entire industry is in ‘Surplus’ right now.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Alaska
Posts: 177
You have to be realistic, redundancy will be fleet related , there is no way the company will want to have such a training burden .
Another reason they also don’t want to be left with crews that are all 50+ when they could keep many younger Pilots .
Imagine the retirements in the next 15!to 29 years .
Another reason they also don’t want to be left with crews that are all 50+ when they could keep many younger Pilots .
Imagine the retirements in the next 15!to 29 years .
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Being realistic is reading the Contract. Being unrealistic is expecting some sort of company sanctioned FWC intervention that will have a material affect on the validity of all contracts in the years to come.
FWA want EBA’s to be worth the paper they are written on.
FWA want EBA’s to be worth the paper they are written on.
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Denmark
Posts: 457
I’m at JQ I think CR For QF and JQ will be a last resort due to cost. Although JQ EBA is worded differently, 787 pilots or more senior pilots at other bases don’t have a EBA right to displace junior pilots in the bases that will survive this pandemic This will come at JQ discretion. Cost will be the over riding factor for both QF and JQ I’m not 100% of the cost to a business to have crews stood down but be much cheaper than a CR and then the cost of down training as required for QF then the cost of re hire those pilots when it picks up. As stated before one certainty in all of this, it will all come back the question is when.
everyone is just clutching at straws with CR it would have happend by now if it were as seen at AirNZ and other world airlines.
everyone is just clutching at straws with CR it would have happend by now if it were as seen at AirNZ and other world airlines.
