QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,176
A months pay for every year of service is fairly standard when making people redundant and would be much more attractive to senior pilots with 25 years in the company.
If I’m correct, the A380 flew to only six destinations from Australia:
1. Dubai
2. Dallas
For transferring onto flights operated by other airlines. EKs long haul transfer business has been devastated and the US can’t get COVID under control.
3. Singapore
4. Hong Kong
A mix of transfers, stopovers and origin/destination. Almost COVID free with travel bubbles commencing soon between countries with similar COVID rates.
5. London
6. Los Angeles
Primarily O&D, COVID situation worsening with parts of the UK going back into lockdown.
When travel bubbles start opening up, only two of the A380s destinations are likely to be on the list. SQ and CX are lucky to make three digit pax numbers on most of the flights they currently operate to Australia, and neither place is likely to be able to support an A380 without connecting traffic.
The A380 will only be considered once the rest of the fleet is being fully utilised and more aircraft are needed. Once this stage is reached the capacity offered by the type still won’t be needed but if it would be a cheaper option then the alternatives, it could return.
If I’m correct, the A380 flew to only six destinations from Australia:
1. Dubai
2. Dallas
For transferring onto flights operated by other airlines. EKs long haul transfer business has been devastated and the US can’t get COVID under control.
3. Singapore
4. Hong Kong
A mix of transfers, stopovers and origin/destination. Almost COVID free with travel bubbles commencing soon between countries with similar COVID rates.
5. London
6. Los Angeles
Primarily O&D, COVID situation worsening with parts of the UK going back into lockdown.
When travel bubbles start opening up, only two of the A380s destinations are likely to be on the list. SQ and CX are lucky to make three digit pax numbers on most of the flights they currently operate to Australia, and neither place is likely to be able to support an A380 without connecting traffic.
The A380 will only be considered once the rest of the fleet is being fully utilised and more aircraft are needed. Once this stage is reached the capacity offered by the type still won’t be needed but if it would be a cheaper option then the alternatives, it could return.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever I can log on.
Posts: 1,759
Prior to COVID, the plan was to replace the A380 on the Dallas route, in 2021, with a QF B787-9 SYD-DFW-SYD and an AA B787-9 DFW-BNE-DFW which would have resulted in more seats able to be occupied out of DFW and lower costs despite there being two aircraft and crews invovled. If, against all predictions, some of the QF A380's are brought back into service some time in the future, it would be very unlikely that they would be going back to DFW.
AA would have preferred that QF operate both flights but the US Government required AA to do their share of flying that occurs under the JSA so they elected to operate the service to BNE.
AA would have preferred that QF operate both flights but the US Government required AA to do their share of flying that occurs under the JSA so they elected to operate the service to BNE.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,176
The A380 might be able to do SIN - LHR - SIN with other aircraft routing between the capital cities and Singapore. Possibly extend through to SYD if traffic justifies it. Basing a couple of aircraft there is quite feasible as it's a regular port already with the required maintenance available. SYD - LAX - SYD might be a goer if it takes all the Australia to North America traffic with pax connecting via these cities only
HKG won't be able to fill an A380, Dallas is purely a transfer hub which can be replaced by LAX, and DXB is only to connect with EK flights. Rather codeshare with EK and let them bear the losses.
This would be a realistic scenario for the A380 returning, however it's dependent on Australia opening its borders which may not happen until well into next year, and UK/USA would need to have COVID well under control, however the situation is getting worse rather than better in these countries. Initially the routes could be operated by B787s which could be replaced by the A380 when the volume of traffic is enough to make the larger type profitable.
HKG won't be able to fill an A380, Dallas is purely a transfer hub which can be replaced by LAX, and DXB is only to connect with EK flights. Rather codeshare with EK and let them bear the losses.
This would be a realistic scenario for the A380 returning, however it's dependent on Australia opening its borders which may not happen until well into next year, and UK/USA would need to have COVID well under control, however the situation is getting worse rather than better in these countries. Initially the routes could be operated by B787s which could be replaced by the A380 when the volume of traffic is enough to make the larger type profitable.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DeShire
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by krismiler
Realistically, I can't see the A380 ever returning except for a small number in one or two airlines on a handful of routes. It's the modern equivalent of the Concorde. Airlines are pruning their fleets of older, inefficient and 4 engined types, even early A320s are being scrapped. Once air travel starts to return, B787s and A350s will be first out of the gate, CX have pushed the B777 - 9 back to beyond 2025 and even their current B777 fleet isn't looking good.
It would be very hard to make a case for bringing the aircraft back into service and operating it in comparison to newer twins, QF might not have the critical mass required to make it worthwhile if it could only be justified on a couple of runs. Even the few airlines which continue to operate it may have to look at reducing the size of the premium cabins.
It would be very hard to make a case for bringing the aircraft back into service and operating it in comparison to newer twins, QF might not have the critical mass required to make it worthwhile if it could only be justified on a couple of runs. Even the few airlines which continue to operate it may have to look at reducing the size of the premium cabins.
Joyce is just saying he is unsure so that he can argue A380 crew will remain stood down unpaid till at least 2023-2025.
Do feel sorry for those crew that will lose homes, marriages etc and won’t survive financially or mentally till then. Hopefully some can find other work. Many will not.
You would be better off financially being made redundant. If there was anything left you could return one day when re hiring commences rather than suffer the mental and financial anguish of 4-5 years of limbo on unpaid stand down. A 5 year unpaid standby where you can’t move on with certainty.
Raises the question of how long is it reasonable when at some point in time there is clearly no useful work for an employee?
Whatever is cheaper for Alan and QF. Got to pay for the all the executive share options. How long are the executive stood down for?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 221
Originally Posted by knobbycobby
The A380s are gone.
Joyce is just saying he is unsure so that he can argue A380 crew will remain stood down unpaid till at least 2023-2025.
Do feel sorry for those crew that will lose homes, marriages etc and won’t survive financially or mentally till then. Hopefully some can find other work. Many will not.
You would be better off financially being made redundant. If there was anything left you could return one day when re hiring commences rather than suffer the mental and financial anguish of 4-5 years of limbo on unpaid stand down. A 5 year unpaid standby where you can’t move on with certainty.
Raises the question of how long is it reasonable when at some point in time there is clearly no useful work for an employee?
Whatever is cheaper for Alan and QF. Got to pay for the all the executive share options. How long are the executive stood down for?
Joyce is just saying he is unsure so that he can argue A380 crew will remain stood down unpaid till at least 2023-2025.
Do feel sorry for those crew that will lose homes, marriages etc and won’t survive financially or mentally till then. Hopefully some can find other work. Many will not.
You would be better off financially being made redundant. If there was anything left you could return one day when re hiring commences rather than suffer the mental and financial anguish of 4-5 years of limbo on unpaid stand down. A 5 year unpaid standby where you can’t move on with certainty.
Raises the question of how long is it reasonable when at some point in time there is clearly no useful work for an employee?
Whatever is cheaper for Alan and QF. Got to pay for the all the executive share options. How long are the executive stood down for?
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by havick
So much for seniority.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 507
Originally Posted by dr dre
It’s not like any were denied the opportunity (talking mostly about SOs here) to take an upgrade, their seniority would have gotten them onto the 737 in any base or a lot to LH FO as well. They chose to be where they are.
There are more than a few FOs on the A380 who were on the 737 for years, before landing a gig on the A380 in the last 2 years.
It’s just a sh!tty situation all round.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: SE QLD
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by dr dre
It’s not like any were denied the opportunity (talking mostly about SOs here) to take an upgrade, their seniority would have gotten them onto the 737 in any base or a lot to LH FO as well. They chose to be where they are.
Stand down won’t go on for years, won’t be allowed to. Have a chat with some IR lawyers and you’ll understand why. Greater things at play than Joyce and Co. The advice I’ve heard - Follow your enterprise agreement, all that is necessary is contained within it.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The World
Posts: 1,267
Originally Posted by ruprecht
and...?
There are more than a few FOs on the A380 who were on the 737 for years, before landing a gig on the A380 in the last 2 years.
It’s just a sh!tty situation all round.
There are more than a few FOs on the A380 who were on the 737 for years, before landing a gig on the A380 in the last 2 years.
It’s just a sh!tty situation all round.
The 737 won’t be an option (can’t RIN between awards and company won’t train more than necessary onto 737) so the only options in mainline for stood down 380 and 747 pilots are 330 and 787. And I believe they only get a shot once existing pilots have been retrained back to their roles and with concessions. By the time that happens it will be a couple of years into the future, and I’d assume the market would’ve picked up substantially if both 330 and 787 are back flying at max capacity. Maybe enough to bring a few 380s back.
Another option which may occur in 12-18 months is another VR. I can foresee more pilots requesting it in that time frame, perhaps the first one was too soon after the initial shock of stand downs, maybe more will be comfortable putting their hand up for it after they’ve established themselves in a new career.
So once those things happen, plus the existing 250 to go soon under VR/ER there’ll be a more manageable situation in 2022/23.
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
It’s not relevant where they could have gone - seniority is still the rule of the land.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
Stand down won’t go on for years, won’t be allowed to. Have a chat with some IR lawyers and you’ll understand why. Greater things at play than Joyce and Co. The advice I’ve heard - Follow your enterprise agreement, all that is necessary is contained within it.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 595
Not necessarily, ask Kendall CRJ pilots about how seniority works. Although the situations would be different it shows courts don’t always follow strict seniority in IR law.
Join Date: May 2018
Location: The street
Posts: 71
Originally Posted by Lookleft
You don't have to go that far back. Virgin 777 and A330 pilots had seniority and the only thing that gets them is the chance to be rehired in 2 years if Virgin are recruiting. Seniority works when the situation is normal. It is a long way from being that now and for a few years to come.
747 crew get to RIN using seniority. They don’t want to retrain crew. If they could of made them redundant on type they would have.
Pilots don’t understand their own agreement. Embarrassing lack of knowledge.
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Straya
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by dr dre
It’s not like any were denied the opportunity (talking mostly about SOs here) to take an upgrade, their seniority would have gotten them onto the 737 in any base or a lot to LH FO as well. They chose to be where they are.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by Gazza mate
I would rather a stand down or a big CR payout than fly a maggot.
Of course, the maggot has also got a habit of highlighting deficiencies in otherwise ‘sh*t hot pilots’.
Last edited by crosscutter; 30th Oct 2020 at 22:00.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by crosscutter
Considering the waves of unemployed pilots across the world including Aust and NZ, that comment is at best embarrassing. Doubly so when you consider many 737 pilots were willing to keep their pay packets lower by potentially agreeing to let some LH pilots transfer across hauls.
Of course, the maggot has also got a habit of highlighting deficiencies in otherwise ‘sh*t hot pilots’.
Of course, the maggot has also got a habit of highlighting deficiencies in otherwise ‘sh*t hot pilots’.
Made me laugh, thanks!
