Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Air NZ pilot redundancies

Old 31st Aug 2021, 03:24
  #461 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
Let me guess, you have been paid throughout? Economy in great shape my arse, I know many people who have lost everything as they were not privileged enough to work for an airline with an endless line of credit from the government. I ask you again, when we get as close to 100% vaccination as possible (what does that mean by the way, is it 80% or 73%) where too from then? Please answer that, are we opening borders, are we still locking down, are we allowing free travel for the vaccinated. WHEN Covid becomes endemic which it will what is the plan? Everyone else has realised that once Covid is in we have no choice but to live with it, the Governments own report even said that. Now I can see if you are sitting at home retired on the pension, or indeed working for Air NZ on full pay then lockdowns wouldnít be a problem, that is not the reality for many people.

as for suicides, most countries in the world that used lockdowns have seen a dramatic rise in suicides and attempts in their young populations, here is an example: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-pandemic.html

Our own PM is becoming increasingly concerned about our mental well-being, she spent 10 minutes of her press conference yesterday promoting various mental health resourcesÖ. Why, because they can see the trend and the toll this is taking on people.

get the jab and letís get on with life,

Daily Mail; sorry not buying that, not a reliable source.

100% is 100%; we will never get that, as under 12's aren't eligible (yet),plus there will always be those who can't or won't have the jab (I've had both). The plan was recently released by the government and developed by Professor David Skegg..

If you cannot accept we are in a better situation than other countries, then I'll respect your view, but disagree with you. I personally do not wish to see this in NZ.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...pitals-morgues
Anti Skid On is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2021, 03:28
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Konyagi View Post
Agreed. Wasting resources on this for a handful of conspiracy theorists is ridiculous.

If youíre an anti vaxxer, maybe a career in the international travel industry just isnít for you.
At the moment, there is no more Green flying so at best (if/when we come out of Lockdown) they could fly Domestic only as any Legal Challenge through the Courts will likely take a very long time, especially with Lockdowns clogging up the system.​​​​​​
But, Even if they manage to win the Battle against the Government mandate
And if they go onto win against the Company requiring Vaccines (currently being discussed),
What will it matter when the entire World is taking steps towards COVID Passports for future travel? Who will they take to Court then?

The ARP's (Age Restricted Pilots, over 65's) could only claim rights to Domestic/Tasman/Pacific Island flying because those Countries were aligned with NZ in regards to mandatory retirement age.
How many Countries will allow unrestricted entry for Unvaccinated arrivals in the next few years?

I suppose we'll soon find out just how convicted they are with the deadline looming. Again, even if they're confident of beating this in Court, I doubt they'll get to bring it before a Judge anytime soon.

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Old 31st Aug 2021, 03:44
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Anti Skid On View Post
Daily Mail; sorry not buying that, not a reliable source.

100% is 100%; we will never get that, as under 12's aren't eligible (yet),plus there will always be those who can't or won't have the jab (I've had both). The plan was recently released by the government and developed by Professor David Skegg..

If you cannot accept we are in a better situation than other countries, then I'll respect your view, but disagree with you. I personally do not wish to see this in NZ.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...pitals-morgues

so what you are saying is you don’t accept any information that conflicts with yours as a ‘reliable’ source. I will ask you once again, what is you plan, if we get say 80% vaccination, is your solution we keep the borders closed and using lockdowns as we are to keep covid out forever........

I can’t see that we are better off, we are stuck in a level 4 lockdown when the rest of the world is moving on. My mates in the UK are back to flying full time, are taking holidays in Europe and the USA and their kids are back at school, they know that they won’t be locking down again so the certainty they have is much better than ours. Skaggs also said in his report it is unrealistic to think we can keep Covid out and at some point elimination will be a failed strategy, I am asking you what is your plan to prepare for this.

by the way, you realise those States that are asking for extra morgue space are having to do so because the vaccine uptake is so bad and the unvaccinated are getting very sick.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 04:08
  #464 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
so what you are saying is you donít accept any information that conflicts with yours as a Ďreliableí source. I will ask you once again, what is you plan, if we get say 80% vaccination, is your solution we keep the borders closed and using lockdowns as we are to keep covid out forever........

I canít see that we are better off, we are stuck in a level 4 lockdown when the rest of the world is moving on. My mates in the UK are back to flying full time, are taking holidays in Europe and the USA and their kids are back at school, they know that they wonít be locking down again so the certainty they have is much better than ours. Skaggs also said in his report it is unrealistic to think we can keep Covid out and at some point elimination will be a failed strategy, I am asking you what is your plan to prepare for this.

by the way, you realise those States that are asking for extra morgue space are having to do so because the vaccine uptake is so bad and the unvaccinated are getting very sick.
The plan is to get as close to 100% and then open the border, accepting only vaccinated people from countries where they have limited spread. That is exactly what we need to do; we cannot cope with a large outbreak. WE will open when WE are ready. It is also the model Australia and others will have.

We are only in lockdown because we had community transmission of delta variant; we have been in level 1 for 6 months; where I live I'll be in L3 at midnight and hopefully in L2 next week, and L1 soon after.

If Europe and the USA are so great, feel free to go there; if you remember, our kids have been at school for over 6 months without any issues and everyone has been living normally. Our GDP continues to grow https://www.stats.govt.nz/informatio...h-2021-quarter

As for our economy tanking and us borrowing so much; our debt to GDP ratio is currently around 24%; our GDP is US$20,000,000,000; which means we could borrow US$15,000,000,000 and still have less debt than the US, UK, Japan, France, etc.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 04:25
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like unvaccinated pilots will be down the road on long term LWOP, that is what I am hearing. And that is going to be Air NZ Group Wide.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 04:59
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Anti Skid On View Post
The plan is to get as close to 100% and then open the border, accepting only vaccinated people from countries where they have limited spread. That is exactly what we need to do; we cannot cope with a large outbreak. WE will open when WE are ready. It is also the model Australia and others will have.

We are only in lockdown because we had community transmission of delta variant; we have been in level 1 for 6 months; where I live I'll be in L3 at midnight and hopefully in L2 next week, and L1 soon after.

If Europe and the USA are so great, feel free to go there; if you remember, our kids have been at school for over 6 months without any issues and everyone has been living normally. Our GDP continues to grow https://www.stats.govt.nz/informatio...h-2021-quarter

As for our economy tanking and us borrowing so much; our debt to GDP ratio is currently around 24%; our GDP is US$20,000,000,000; which means we could borrow US$15,000,000,000 and still have less debt than the US, UK, Japan, France, etc.
We are losing Herd immunity to Measles due to the spread of Anti-Vaxx rhetoric and thus will never get anywhere close to 100% Vaccination uptake given how many people, who aren't strictly Anti-Vaxx, refuse to accept the severity of COVID.
So if We will open when we are ready, and the definition of ready is close to 100% Vaccination status, then we won't be opening. Ever.

Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
Sounds like unvaccinated pilots will be down the road on long term LWOP, that is what I am hearing. And that is going to be Air NZ Group Wide.
Potentially yes. Up to 10 years LWOP, retaining service benefits for the first 5. But this hinges on the Companies decision to require Vaccination for all frontline staff. The Government mandate would allow non-vaccinated Pilots to crew the A320 on Domestic services and possibly Tasman/Pacific returns if bubbles return, as the mandate relates to Layovers.

However, similar to QF (I believe) Air NZ are considering mandating the Vaccine for all frontline staff which would prohibit these Pilots from operating entirely and thus LWOP would avoid termination.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 06:43
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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Get use to the new normal....Air NZ will become a short haul operator as will Qantas
..just a matter of time
..sad really but it is what it is
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 08:31
  #468 (permalink)  
 
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Carrots work a hell of a lot better than sticks.

$1000 staff travel vouchers perhaps?
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 08:44
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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Does that get paid to everyone who has done the right thing and got the jab for the good of everyone.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 21:28
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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The anti vax issue has been thrown around a fair amount and the lawyers are starting to get their teeth into it over here in Europe. Regular articles and opinions are being put out there by learned colleagues as we are out of lockdowns and businesses are now returning to offices. The general consensus within the aviation sector is that being an anti vaxxer won't fly. You can argue discrimination and infringement of human rights all you like but the reality is most of us have standard T&Cs in our employment contracts requiring us to have unrestricted travel, valid passports, obtain background checks for AICs, pass visa checks and comply with local and international laws whilst undertaking company business etc. The legal view in Europe at least would appear to be that our employers will be well within their rights to insist on having all employees vaxxed and whilst they will undoubtedly "respect" your inherent human rights to not partake unfortunately this will do harm to their business and you will be in contravention of your obligations as an employee as set out in your employment contract. The only avenue remaining to you is to hope that you have an understanding employer who is prepared to write rosters that will enable you to fly to countries in the future that do not require you to be vaccinated. I think we can figure out the chances of that happening.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 22:06
  #471 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I am concerned the anti Vax brigade can be shown the door, and some of the furloughed pilots can be brought back.

The anti vaxers will be the first ones to have the company up over heath and safety if they end up seriously sick from catching COVID.
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Old 31st Aug 2021, 22:50
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by continue#1 View Post
Totally agree! Canít say Iím happy with NZALPA throwing resources into this . Just get the jab or not, if not, resign and let pilots come back from furlough.
I think it was money well spent.

I have no idea if or how many "anti vax" crew there might be. No doubt like any group of the population there will be some.

My take on what ALPA said was we have done the research and our advice is if you're contemplating any court action be prepared for a whopping legal bill and your chances of success are very slim. It was basically a wake up call for anyone caught up the in the Vaccination Order who were thinking they may fight to retain the their job if they refuse the vaccine.

I thought it was very good advice and the sort of stuff any worker organisation should be giving to their members. Personally I think the anti vaxxers are being short sighted and selfish in refusing the Covid vaccine. This sort of information allows then to make an informed choice about choosing their job or not having the vaccine.
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Old 1st Sep 2021, 00:10
  #473 (permalink)  
 
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I also think the NZALPA email was great, they have spent a bit of time and money now so that they can say that any thoughts of court action are likely to lead to a lengthy and costly exercise. From talking to senior ALPA people they will use this advice as the basis for refusing to fund any challenges to vaccine mandate, this is a win for the majority of NZALPA members. Alan Joyce said it best last week when he said 'if you want to be involved in Aviation going forward you will need to be vaccinated'.
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