QANTAS EA10 BUSTED.......A SECRET RIN
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QANTAS EA10 .......A SECRET RIN
HI ALL,
In my honest opinion, an update on all that’s happening in Qantas Long Haul.
It appears Qantas Long Haul EA negotiators may have recently upped the anti in their plan to sell their thirsty A380 and ageing A330 fleets.
If Long Haul pilots vote NO to EA10 in 2 weeks, they cannot be subjected to a reduction in numbers (RIN)(forcibly moved) to the new A350 fleet. The company has vowed to outsource A350 jobs if it’s own pilots vote NO. Outsourcing puts those jobs on a new award.
Under Australian Law, a workforce cannot be forced from one award to another, it can only be moved within its existing award, unless a new award is agreed to.
The A350 is being sold as the Sunrise only aircraft but it’s possible it will replace A330 and A380 fleets starting as soon as late 2022.
If long haul pilots vote NO, they remain on current EA9 conditions of pay rates, pay protection, duty hours, and time off.
A vote of NO means they can only be RINNED to B787, within the scope of EA9.
The B787 enjoys the highest hourly rate and protections, suffering only reduced penalty rates, defeating Qantas' plan to get its pilots off EA9 for good..
The costs involved in RINNING to the established B787 fleet are absolutely prohibitive, because every pilot RINNED, moves someone junior to them, who move someone junior to them, and so on, and so on, under EA9.
The company plan appears to be to get a pilot body Yes vote, have them all on the same award, EA10.
It then is able to stop the A380 refurbishment at 2 or 3 of its fleet of 12, and announce a RIN in 2022, due to the retirement of existing Airbus fleets.
It's existing A330 and 380 pilots can then be RINNED to the A350, fly up to 970 hours per year under duty limits, for a pay reduction of up to 35% for Captains and First Officers. New hire Second Officers will be on a C scale wage, close to that QAL of Flight Attendants.
WHICH GROUP ARE YOU IN ? WHAT A YES VOTE MEANS FOR YOU IN A RIN
GROUP A.......You're a new SO and see an A350 FO slot in your future. >>>>>>Sadly FO positions will be filled by qualified but junior RINNED Airbus FO's and displaced B787 FO’s.
GROUP B......You're a junior FO eager for your initial Command.>>>>>>> Forget it, Qantas has 100's of experienced Captains they have to put somewhere, RINNED to A350 or displacing junior B787 Captains.
GROUP C......You don't care because you don't intend to bid for the A350.>>>>>>You don't have to bid, you're going to be forced onto it.
GROUP D......You're a B787 pilot, so you're immune to the A350 >>>>>>>>Bad news, you're not. The senior RINNED pilots now displace you to A350.
GROUP E......You're planning on retiring within the decade. >>>>>>>>Actually you'll be wanting to retire in 2 years, and your kids better not be pilots after all.
GROUP F.......You just want the 3% backpay.>>>>>>>>>You will get it, but work 200 stick hours more, for a big pay CUT.
To be clear, RINNING qualified and company experienced 330 and 380 pilots to the NOT YET ESTABLISHED A350 is the dirt cheapest way possible to fill the slots, and end the reign of the EA9 LONG HAUL AWARD, all in 1 bold move. The latter being the most important to Qantas.
The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
This strange and unprecedented behaviour from AIPA executives, that has seen deep dissatisfaction within the union for some months now, seems to align with Qantas' recent 180 Flip on it's Project Sunrise stance.
Until 4 weeks ago, Qantas was very prepared to abandon Sunrise if the pilots voted NO, with no hard and fast deadlines.
Now, they are threatening their pilots with plans to outsource the flying, holding daily webinars to sell the new pay cut/work harder deal, and the vote must be made right ASAP.
A NO vote means they are stuck with A380 and A330 aircraft for the foreseeable future, 5 to 10 years as per the original plan PRE SUNRISE
Even in 5 or 10 years, the current EA9 will make the inevitable aircraft retirement RIN a prohibitively expensive exercise, by comparison.
The Company is desperate to get a YES vote up, smashing the pilot award, and the Union appears to roll over and play dead, to the detriment of it's own members.
Only solidarity among pilots and a vote of NO will get the company to consider negotiating in good faith, as has been the practise for 100 years.
In my honest opinion, an update on all that’s happening in Qantas Long Haul.
It appears Qantas Long Haul EA negotiators may have recently upped the anti in their plan to sell their thirsty A380 and ageing A330 fleets.
If Long Haul pilots vote NO to EA10 in 2 weeks, they cannot be subjected to a reduction in numbers (RIN)(forcibly moved) to the new A350 fleet. The company has vowed to outsource A350 jobs if it’s own pilots vote NO. Outsourcing puts those jobs on a new award.
Under Australian Law, a workforce cannot be forced from one award to another, it can only be moved within its existing award, unless a new award is agreed to.
The A350 is being sold as the Sunrise only aircraft but it’s possible it will replace A330 and A380 fleets starting as soon as late 2022.
If long haul pilots vote NO, they remain on current EA9 conditions of pay rates, pay protection, duty hours, and time off.
A vote of NO means they can only be RINNED to B787, within the scope of EA9.
The B787 enjoys the highest hourly rate and protections, suffering only reduced penalty rates, defeating Qantas' plan to get its pilots off EA9 for good..
The costs involved in RINNING to the established B787 fleet are absolutely prohibitive, because every pilot RINNED, moves someone junior to them, who move someone junior to them, and so on, and so on, under EA9.
The company plan appears to be to get a pilot body Yes vote, have them all on the same award, EA10.
It then is able to stop the A380 refurbishment at 2 or 3 of its fleet of 12, and announce a RIN in 2022, due to the retirement of existing Airbus fleets.
It's existing A330 and 380 pilots can then be RINNED to the A350, fly up to 970 hours per year under duty limits, for a pay reduction of up to 35% for Captains and First Officers. New hire Second Officers will be on a C scale wage, close to that QAL of Flight Attendants.
WHICH GROUP ARE YOU IN ? WHAT A YES VOTE MEANS FOR YOU IN A RIN
GROUP A.......You're a new SO and see an A350 FO slot in your future. >>>>>>Sadly FO positions will be filled by qualified but junior RINNED Airbus FO's and displaced B787 FO’s.
GROUP B......You're a junior FO eager for your initial Command.>>>>>>> Forget it, Qantas has 100's of experienced Captains they have to put somewhere, RINNED to A350 or displacing junior B787 Captains.
GROUP C......You don't care because you don't intend to bid for the A350.>>>>>>You don't have to bid, you're going to be forced onto it.
GROUP D......You're a B787 pilot, so you're immune to the A350 >>>>>>>>Bad news, you're not. The senior RINNED pilots now displace you to A350.
GROUP E......You're planning on retiring within the decade. >>>>>>>>Actually you'll be wanting to retire in 2 years, and your kids better not be pilots after all.
GROUP F.......You just want the 3% backpay.>>>>>>>>>You will get it, but work 200 stick hours more, for a big pay CUT.
To be clear, RINNING qualified and company experienced 330 and 380 pilots to the NOT YET ESTABLISHED A350 is the dirt cheapest way possible to fill the slots, and end the reign of the EA9 LONG HAUL AWARD, all in 1 bold move. The latter being the most important to Qantas.
The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
This strange and unprecedented behaviour from AIPA executives, that has seen deep dissatisfaction within the union for some months now, seems to align with Qantas' recent 180 Flip on it's Project Sunrise stance.
Until 4 weeks ago, Qantas was very prepared to abandon Sunrise if the pilots voted NO, with no hard and fast deadlines.
Now, they are threatening their pilots with plans to outsource the flying, holding daily webinars to sell the new pay cut/work harder deal, and the vote must be made right ASAP.
A NO vote means they are stuck with A380 and A330 aircraft for the foreseeable future, 5 to 10 years as per the original plan PRE SUNRISE
Even in 5 or 10 years, the current EA9 will make the inevitable aircraft retirement RIN a prohibitively expensive exercise, by comparison.
The Company is desperate to get a YES vote up, smashing the pilot award, and the Union appears to roll over and play dead, to the detriment of it's own members.
Only solidarity among pilots and a vote of NO will get the company to consider negotiating in good faith, as has been the practise for 100 years.
Last edited by TheStigEA10; 1st Mar 2020 at 21:28.
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That’s great Stig!
Now why don’t you run a little summary of your groups and the consequences of a ”No” vote!
Don’t forget to include the A380 RIN and maybe pretend QF keeps them till 2028 as stated.
Now why don’t you run a little summary of your groups and the consequences of a ”No” vote!
Don’t forget to include the A380 RIN and maybe pretend QF keeps them till 2028 as stated.
Negotiating yourselves out of jobs is the way I see this going. Sorry to be blunt but dogged resistance to any sort of flexibility in this era will result in a loss of work for you and your colleagues. I don't claim to understand the internal workings of your very complicated EBA but I sort of get the feeling you want A380 money and conditions on the A350, good luck with that.
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Negotiating yourselves out of jobs is the way I see this going. Sorry to be blunt but dogged resistance to any sort of flexibility in this era will result in a loss of work for you and your colleagues. I don't claim to understand the internal workings of your very complicated EBA but I sort of get the feeling you want A380 money and conditions on the A350, good luck with that.
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FYI....our pilots are flexible and willing to negotiate, our last EA proved that beyond any doubt as we agreed to major concessions.
This EA is completely different, there is ZERO negotiation by the company.......sign it or get out .
Anybody claiming that pilots are inflexible in this case clearly has never been to a CoM .
This EA is completely different, there is ZERO negotiation by the company.......sign it or get out .
Anybody claiming that pilots are inflexible in this case clearly has never been to a CoM .
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Lol. Jesus. Where do you even start.
A NO vote results in a new entity being established. Under your own reasoning, the 380 eventually gets replaced by the 350 anyway. But because there is no 350 in EBA 10 (because you voted NO) those planes go to the new entity. So you know what happens then? Yep - you guessed it.... RINd to the 787.
Another flawed argument trying to scare the troops.
A NO vote results in a new entity being established. Under your own reasoning, the 380 eventually gets replaced by the 350 anyway. But because there is no 350 in EBA 10 (because you voted NO) those planes go to the new entity. So you know what happens then? Yep - you guessed it.... RINd to the 787.
Another flawed argument trying to scare the troops.
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HI ALL,
The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
.
The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
.
I guess it depends what camp you’re in. No pilot I’ve spoken to are furious at all. Everyone I talk to just want to get the vote out ASAP and hopefully get a yes result.
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Negotiating yourselves out of jobs is the way I see this going. Sorry to be blunt but dogged resistance to any sort of flexibility in this era will result in a loss of work for you and your colleagues. I don't claim to understand the internal workings of your very complicated EBA but I sort of get the feeling you want A380 money and conditions on the A350, good luck with that.
Maybe after they have just ferried the last 380 to the desert, and are sitting on a 787 paxing back to base. 787 RIN course starting the following week.
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Yep....every LH pilot I have spoken to (CPT, F/Os and S/Os)....albeit only 20 odd.....have all been completely in favour of a yes vote to secure their flying. The SH pilots that I talk to are frustrated that they don't get a vote and their futures could be hijacked by the no camp.
Fork in the road - to me (and others) it's completely obvious which way to turn.
Fork in the road - to me (and others) it's completely obvious which way to turn.
Yep....every LH pilot I have spoken to (CPT, F/Os and S/Os)....albeit only 20 odd.....have all been completely in favour of a yes vote to secure their flying. The SH pilots that I talk to are frustrated that they don't get a vote and their futures could be hijacked by the no camp.
Fork in the road - to me (and others) it's completely obvious which way to turn.
Fork in the road - to me (and others) it's completely obvious which way to turn.
Nunc est bibendum
Crikey, what a rant!
Qantas doesn’t need AIPA’s agreement to put the offer to the membership for a vote. In fact it was Qantas telling AIPA that it’s going to a vote. The offer from Qantas appears to be better than what was previously advertised. If the President was able to secure those improvements then good on him.
If you think it’s a bad thing AIPA is being involved to ensure the drafting is appropriate then I’d be questioning your sanity. If you’re a COM member I’d also be questioning whether you’re upholding your mantra of serving the member’s interests.
It’s ‘strange and unprecedented’ that the president of the union meets with the company at a critical stage of negotiations? I don’t think so.
Based on these two points alone it’s quite easy to see your completely unhinged view of the way things are going and Normanton has nailed beautifully the flawed logic behind your scenario in the event of a ‘no’ vote.
Look at the deal that is put in front of you when the time comes, decide if you think it’s good enough, weigh that against the threat of an external crewing agency, vote.
The President of the AUSTRALIAN & INTERNATIONAL PILOTS ASSOCIATION (AIPA) on Friday had 2 private meetings with Qantas management, after which both parties
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
agreed to put the Company offer to the membership vote.
This was done without AIPA Committee of Management knowledge or consent.
Committee members and the pilot body are furious.
If you think it’s a bad thing AIPA is being involved to ensure the drafting is appropriate then I’d be questioning your sanity. If you’re a COM member I’d also be questioning whether you’re upholding your mantra of serving the member’s interests.
It’s ‘strange and unprecedented’ that the president of the union meets with the company at a critical stage of negotiations? I don’t think so.
Based on these two points alone it’s quite easy to see your completely unhinged view of the way things are going and Normanton has nailed beautifully the flawed logic behind your scenario in the event of a ‘no’ vote.
Look at the deal that is put in front of you when the time comes, decide if you think it’s good enough, weigh that against the threat of an external crewing agency, vote.
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Thanks Keg. A wise comment from a respected member.
I have had a mixed reaction about the result. From the 330/787 pilots I have spoken to, I would say its 80% Yes, 20% No. But thats not very accurate, as a large amount of votes from the 747 / 380 crew would be voting NO, to protect the legacy conditions / pay on retiring aircraft.
I have had a mixed reaction about the result. From the 330/787 pilots I have spoken to, I would say its 80% Yes, 20% No. But thats not very accurate, as a large amount of votes from the 747 / 380 crew would be voting NO, to protect the legacy conditions / pay on retiring aircraft.
I have had a mixed reaction about the result. From the 330/787 pilots I have spoken to, I would say its 80% Yes, 20% No. But thats not very accurate, as a large amount of votes from the 747 / 380 crew would be voting NO, to protect the legacy conditions / pay on retiring aircraft.
All this talk about a 30% reduction in pay is nonsense.
Even in the last few days the proposals have changed with union input. There will be some type of additional duty payment, a long range credit that will function similar to a night credit and increased yearly pay scales.
Even in the last few days the proposals have changed with union input. There will be some type of additional duty payment, a long range credit that will function similar to a night credit and increased yearly pay scales.
The ULR credit on a 21 hour TOD is $155 after tax for a Captain on the 350.