VA pilots worried about employment 2021
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Mel
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas announced today that it is reducing capacity to Japan. Yet Scurrah would have you believe that all is well and the Haneda flights will go as planned with strong forward bookings. When will they admit that this will be a disaster. The A330 will very shortly have little if anything to do.
Evertonian
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The going-concern value is often greater than the liquidation value of airlines, thereby motivating an infusion of capital into bankrupt or near bankruptcy airlines rather than their liquidation. Virgin isn't there yet. It has positive cash flow, has over a billion in cash reserves and it can service its debts.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The share price is a bad look but it’s largely irrelevant. 90% of the airline is owned by five other entities. There are basically none on the market. Look at the trade volume compared with other public companies.
Except that it can never be reciprocated as there just aren't enough WB pilots to subsidise the 737s if the situation was reversed and the 737 was in trouble.
Those who went onto the widebody went in with the full knowledge that it may not work. Some people didn't take it because they didn't want to take the risk. You can't take the risk then expect a bailout because the cards haven't fallen your way.
Nothing against the sentiment except that it just doesn't work in reality and the pay differential between the two is significant.
Those who went onto the widebody went in with the full knowledge that it may not work. Some people didn't take it because they didn't want to take the risk. You can't take the risk then expect a bailout because the cards haven't fallen your way.
Nothing against the sentiment except that it just doesn't work in reality and the pay differential between the two is significant.
What ever happened to looking after your colleagues or friends or community. We've turned in to such a dog eat dog society in general, and pilots represent the worst of it.
The proper thing to do is for all Virgin group pilots to take a pay cut to preserve the organisation. NB pilots can bang on all they want about WB being this and that and WB pilots knew the risk blah blah blah. But wait and see what happens to NB if the WB operations fold. A great deal of the domestic operation is supported by the on carriage of international passengers. We are seeing the effects of that now with drop in numbers from the virus. Then the NB fleet will face redundancies. Some of the attitudes here reflect a totally misplaced sense of invulnerability by NB pilots at Virgin. Sure the 330 is a massive problem and needs to be fixed. But international is a necessity and needs to survive. If it falls, it will be a portent of things to come. It is much easier to keep the current operation going than to cut back to the bone and then have to rebuild in the future. In fact I would say that if the WB were to go, then it would probably never return and Virgin would be relegated to a second level airline.
I realise i live in another world to most pilots, but building solidarity is the best way to deal with this crap. Two months ago, it was just 330 pilots, now it's Tiger 320 pilots and VAI 737 pilots. Make no mistake, VAA 737 pilots will be next. Rather than say "**** you, I'm all right jack" why not band together and protect everyone's jobs by taking across the group pay cuts or pay freezes. By the way, I'm pretty senior in the mix of things and I'm not concerned about redundancy. What I am concerned about is the future of the company. I'm also a great supporter of unions, but at the moment, the unions position (which is member driven) is just placing greater financial strain on the business. There will be no satisfaction for anyone to have preserved straight line seniority only to have the company fold in 18months. Whereas across the board pay cuts can do both. Preserve seniority, plus make a meaningful contribution toward keeping the company afloat. Straight line seniority preserves jobs only for those that benefit, while imposing massive training costs onto the business as seats are backfilled.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And therein lies the problem. Your classic australian pilot "what's in it for me" attitude. Or more likely, "if those blokes lose their jobs, then that makes it more likely I'll be able to take their seat in the future".
What ever happened to looking after your colleagues or friends or community. We've turned in to such a dog eat dog society in general, and pilots represent the worst of it.
The proper thing to do is for all Virgin group pilots to take a pay cut to preserve the organisation. NB pilots can bang on all they want about WB being this and that and WB pilots knew the risk blah blah blah. But wait and see what happens to NB if the WB operations fold. A great deal of the domestic operation is supported by the on carriage of international passengers. We are seeing the effects of that now with drop in numbers from the virus. Then the NB fleet will face redundancies. Some of the attitudes here reflect a totally misplaced sense of invulnerability by NB pilots at Virgin. Sure the 330 is a massive problem and needs to be fixed. But international is a necessity and needs to survive. If it falls, it will be a portent of things to come. It is much easier to keep the current operation going than to cut back to the bone and then have to rebuild in the future. In fact I would say that if the WB were to go, then it would probably never return and Virgin would be relegated to a second level airline.
I realise i live in another world to most pilots, but building solidarity is the best way to deal with this crap. Two months ago, it was just 330 pilots, now it's Tiger 320 pilots and VAI 737 pilots. Make no mistake, VAA 737 pilots will be next. Rather than say "**** you, I'm all right jack" why not band together and protect everyone's jobs by taking across the group pay cuts or pay freezes. By the way, I'm pretty senior in the mix of things and I'm not concerned about redundancy. What I am concerned about is the future of the company. I'm also a great supporter of unions, but at the moment, the unions position (which is member driven) is just placing greater financial strain on the business. There will be no satisfaction for anyone to have preserved straight line seniority only to have the company fold in 18months. Whereas across the board pay cuts can do both. Preserve seniority, plus make a meaningful contribution toward keeping the company afloat. Straight line seniority preserves jobs only for those that benefit, while imposing massive training costs onto the business as seats are backfilled.
What ever happened to looking after your colleagues or friends or community. We've turned in to such a dog eat dog society in general, and pilots represent the worst of it.
The proper thing to do is for all Virgin group pilots to take a pay cut to preserve the organisation. NB pilots can bang on all they want about WB being this and that and WB pilots knew the risk blah blah blah. But wait and see what happens to NB if the WB operations fold. A great deal of the domestic operation is supported by the on carriage of international passengers. We are seeing the effects of that now with drop in numbers from the virus. Then the NB fleet will face redundancies. Some of the attitudes here reflect a totally misplaced sense of invulnerability by NB pilots at Virgin. Sure the 330 is a massive problem and needs to be fixed. But international is a necessity and needs to survive. If it falls, it will be a portent of things to come. It is much easier to keep the current operation going than to cut back to the bone and then have to rebuild in the future. In fact I would say that if the WB were to go, then it would probably never return and Virgin would be relegated to a second level airline.
I realise i live in another world to most pilots, but building solidarity is the best way to deal with this crap. Two months ago, it was just 330 pilots, now it's Tiger 320 pilots and VAI 737 pilots. Make no mistake, VAA 737 pilots will be next. Rather than say "**** you, I'm all right jack" why not band together and protect everyone's jobs by taking across the group pay cuts or pay freezes. By the way, I'm pretty senior in the mix of things and I'm not concerned about redundancy. What I am concerned about is the future of the company. I'm also a great supporter of unions, but at the moment, the unions position (which is member driven) is just placing greater financial strain on the business. There will be no satisfaction for anyone to have preserved straight line seniority only to have the company fold in 18months. Whereas across the board pay cuts can do both. Preserve seniority, plus make a meaningful contribution toward keeping the company afloat. Straight line seniority preserves jobs only for those that benefit, while imposing massive training costs onto the business as seats are backfilled.
I personally have never had any desire to go on the A330 and I say good luck to them for making heaps more money over several years and working a lot less than the 737 guys.
Just don’t come crying when the house of cards falls down.
Where was their solidarity when the A330 first came along?
There was a dog eat dog mentality to get onto the wide body so don’t go putting everything on the narrow body guys now.
I’ll happily do my bit to help but the proper thing to do would be for the A330 guys to go onto 737 pay for a while rather than everyone be punished.
"There was a dog eat dog mentality to get onto the wide body so don’t go putting everything on the narrow body guys now.
I’ll happily do my bit to help but the proper thing to do would be for the A330 guys to go onto 737 pay for a while rather than everyone be punished."
I think that you've just proved the point that virginexcess was trying to make.
I’ll happily do my bit to help but the proper thing to do would be for the A330 guys to go onto 737 pay for a while rather than everyone be punished."
I think that you've just proved the point that virginexcess was trying to make.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 751
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"There was a dog eat dog mentality to get onto the wide body so don’t go putting everything on the narrow body guys now.
I’ll happily do my bit to help but the proper thing to do would be for the A330 guys to go onto 737 pay for a while rather than everyone be punished."
I think that you've just proved the point that virginexcess was trying to make.
I’ll happily do my bit to help but the proper thing to do would be for the A330 guys to go onto 737 pay for a while rather than everyone be punished."
I think that you've just proved the point that virginexcess was trying to make.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
S&P's study of VAH on 28 Feb 2020 that changed their outlook from stable to negative, relied on minimum GDP growth of 2.2%. With COVID-19, GDP might be lucky to reach 1.5% and may trend negative in one or two quarters. That would throw their estimates out the window.
So S&P can say what they like, but the complexity of external debt laden share holders and a collapsing world market due to COVID-19 make it almost impossible to predict where this will end. Whatever happens, VAH's cash reserve position of $ 900 m (apparently unsecured) will be drawn down significantly.
So S&P can say what they like, but the complexity of external debt laden share holders and a collapsing world market due to COVID-19 make it almost impossible to predict where this will end. Whatever happens, VAH's cash reserve position of $ 900 m (apparently unsecured) will be drawn down significantly.
ernestkgann: Unfortunately some of the travelling public have a different point of view from you. I am aware some VAH customers do not want to be left standing when the music stops.
Virginexcess, how much of the international passengers that fly domestically realistically come from the 330 and 777 operation? I would hazard to guess that the majority come from partner airlines that operate more international services than a handful of 330 and 777 provide.
Bullwinkle makes some very good points. They are facts and the truth.
Paycut is out of the window. Stupid. Pay freeze AT ALL LEVELS would be preferable and something the company is pushing for. All relative when a CEO gets paid millions and senior captains on 777 and A330 get a LOT more than 737 captain for example.
Then you need to look at the pay vs the amount of work/hours operated. A330 is getting cut again. Less flying, same pay.
Meanwhile 737 fleet hours in Sydney will NOT reduce for the next 12 months, sitting around the 80 hour mark.............
Bullwinkle made the point of the dog eat dog with the introduction of the 330. There were a LOT of people that took positions OUTSIDE of seniority. Some management and senior pilots have used the last few years as a means to get as many endorsements under their belt as they can. Changing fleets as they see fit.
All a bitter pill for a lot of the 737 pilots to swallow. Unfortunately this was ALL created by the company and its management. Now the guys and girls on the front line are expected to pay the price. Including turning their backs on fellow aviators.
If it all goes tits up, PS, SA and others in FLT OPS will not give a damn. They will have other corporate positions they can fill quite easily. Not so easy for flight crew.
Good luck. We are going to need it.
Bullwinkle makes some very good points. They are facts and the truth.
Paycut is out of the window. Stupid. Pay freeze AT ALL LEVELS would be preferable and something the company is pushing for. All relative when a CEO gets paid millions and senior captains on 777 and A330 get a LOT more than 737 captain for example.
Then you need to look at the pay vs the amount of work/hours operated. A330 is getting cut again. Less flying, same pay.
Meanwhile 737 fleet hours in Sydney will NOT reduce for the next 12 months, sitting around the 80 hour mark.............
Bullwinkle made the point of the dog eat dog with the introduction of the 330. There were a LOT of people that took positions OUTSIDE of seniority. Some management and senior pilots have used the last few years as a means to get as many endorsements under their belt as they can. Changing fleets as they see fit.
All a bitter pill for a lot of the 737 pilots to swallow. Unfortunately this was ALL created by the company and its management. Now the guys and girls on the front line are expected to pay the price. Including turning their backs on fellow aviators.
If it all goes tits up, PS, SA and others in FLT OPS will not give a damn. They will have other corporate positions they can fill quite easily. Not so easy for flight crew.
Good luck. We are going to need it.
Here's a thought. Just suppose you could help ensure the survival of the airline by taking a pay cut. Let's say the widebody guys go back to 737 rates for 2 years.
The numbers have always shown a loss for both widebody types. You would have to be deluded if you disagree. The 737 guys go on a 2 year pay freeze to help out. At least your fleet has always been in the black.
Would you be game? I have no skin in the game so it doesn't affect me. Obviously, we all know this has nothing much to do with Clovid-19 and just about everything to with insane board and CEO decisions going back to the beginning. Is it too late already to be worried about this?
The numbers have always shown a loss for both widebody types. You would have to be deluded if you disagree. The 737 guys go on a 2 year pay freeze to help out. At least your fleet has always been in the black.
Would you be game? I have no skin in the game so it doesn't affect me. Obviously, we all know this has nothing much to do with Clovid-19 and just about everything to with insane board and CEO decisions going back to the beginning. Is it too late already to be worried about this?
Wouldn’t a 80 or 90% part time 330 FO still earn more than a full time 737 FO?
Does this mean 330 guys are asking your 737 drivers to pass some part of their wages to them, but continue doing those pretty high hours each month? Wouldn’t a 80 or 90% part time 330 FO still earn more than a full time 737 FO?
I don't necessarily disagree with pay cuts across the board if it is looking really bad, however the original suggestion was that the 737 subsidise the WideBody with leave, when the WideBody can take paid/unpaid leave, get some more days off and still get paid more money than the 737.
paywalled article in AFR. Not sure of details. Anybody have access?
Virgin Australia boss Paul Scurrah will have some nerves to calm when he addresses investors on Friday. Mar 5,
Virgin Australia boss Paul Scurrah will have some nerves to calm when he addresses investors on Friday. Mar 5,