Tower at Mildura
Are you forgetting to remove the newspapers, checklists or magazines you put in the window to block the sun?
Last edited by havick; 11th Jan 2020 at 23:12.
RE " . Most of the time the aircraft is not in the position it states it's in, but the call sounded awesome and the content was complete. ."
There were a couple of 'well-known wackers - of - the - time' who , having given their '30mile call' with their estimate for the circuit area, would call, for whatever reason, 'circuit area' at precisely the time they had given.....
BUT.... they were no where to be seen...….
Then, about 2 or 3 minutes later, they would 'roar' into the circuit area going like the proverbial bat out of hell...….WHY???
When we asked them, they would say something purile like 'Because that was PROFESSIONAL - to arrive in the CIRA AT the TIME Nominated......Go Figure, as they say...…
So, to be equally 'professional', we would give them until the very second at the end of their nominated EST minute - and then ask 'where are you - NOT SIGHTED'....as no doubt other traffic approaching would be searching ahead for them - only to have them bolt in from BEHIND...….
Like I said.....'WACKERS'......
Probably still the case today...….Human nature doesn't change.
Cheers
There were a couple of 'well-known wackers - of - the - time' who , having given their '30mile call' with their estimate for the circuit area, would call, for whatever reason, 'circuit area' at precisely the time they had given.....
BUT.... they were no where to be seen...….
Then, about 2 or 3 minutes later, they would 'roar' into the circuit area going like the proverbial bat out of hell...….WHY???
When we asked them, they would say something purile like 'Because that was PROFESSIONAL - to arrive in the CIRA AT the TIME Nominated......Go Figure, as they say...…
So, to be equally 'professional', we would give them until the very second at the end of their nominated EST minute - and then ask 'where are you - NOT SIGHTED'....as no doubt other traffic approaching would be searching ahead for them - only to have them bolt in from BEHIND...….
Like I said.....'WACKERS'......
Probably still the case today...….Human nature doesn't change.
Cheers
Originally Posted by Havick
Are you forgetting to remove the newspapers, checklists or magazines you put in the window to block the sun?
You’re lucky, Cap’n, because you’re perfect. The difference between sliding rather than rolling off the end of a runway into the RESA, and the reason for the aircraft being in that circumstance, is of no consequence from your perspective because you’re perfect. CASA will never call your judgment into question, so you can relax.
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How do you know when there's an FSO in the room? They check the window position in the room and make sure they turn their backs on it cos they're not allowed to look out of it, (haha, haha)
Blogg's, you may need to hand your licence back, last I read, the final responsibility lies with the PIC to see and avoid, regardless of whether there's an ATC or FSO eff-up. So what are your windscreens for? So chicks can look in through them at you at the gate? (If you are a female pilot and take offence to this, don't, cause doods perve on you at the gate when you're in the box office).
Standard radio calls eh? Ive been listening to them as a pilot and ATC (ex) for 30 years, they ain't standard, it's some ******** instructor teaching a student to report at 10 miles, midfield crosswind join, mid downwind, base, mid base, turning final, mid final, backtracking, clear of active runway, clear of all runways, flaps retracted, mag check, ****, I left the master on. Multiply that by 5 aircraft in the circuit. Busy eh!
Did you know that one major Australian aerodrome was counting movements by the number of radio calls, NOT by a takeoff and landing?
Blogg's, you may need to hand your licence back, last I read, the final responsibility lies with the PIC to see and avoid, regardless of whether there's an ATC or FSO eff-up. So what are your windscreens for? So chicks can look in through them at you at the gate? (If you are a female pilot and take offence to this, don't, cause doods perve on you at the gate when you're in the box office).
Standard radio calls eh? Ive been listening to them as a pilot and ATC (ex) for 30 years, they ain't standard, it's some ******** instructor teaching a student to report at 10 miles, midfield crosswind join, mid downwind, base, mid base, turning final, mid final, backtracking, clear of active runway, clear of all runways, flaps retracted, mag check, ****, I left the master on. Multiply that by 5 aircraft in the circuit. Busy eh!
Did you know that one major Australian aerodrome was counting movements by the number of radio calls, NOT by a takeoff and landing?
I have worked in a tower where we counted radio calls to get an idea of movements, it would have to be an ex GAAP I would imagine with a counter to be doing that?
If an airport is that busy it needs a tower, then I’m all for putting in a tower. But to suggest that by flying a jet or a turboprop suddenly makes it impossible to see other traffic, that’s just nuts.
You can call it what you like, Havick. The 100+ punters down the back don't deserve to be in an operation where the primary method of collision avoidance is the pilots looking out the window to try to spot other aircraft. See and Avoid doesn't work, as you Americans have, and continue to, demonstrate.
the faster you go the less it works
we're not fighter pilots and we have other things to also do
see and avoid is a con for hi-cap RPT
edit to add: not to say it doesn't serve some purpose
we're not fighter pilots and we have other things to also do
see and avoid is a con for hi-cap RPT
edit to add: not to say it doesn't serve some purpose
2 Things - well maybe 3:
Porter - Tower movements are calculated either from flight progress strips or running sheets and are retained as evidence - I think non-towered airports record calls so they can send out bills.
Pera - The concept of a remote tower controlling multiple airports only works if the country regulations require ATC for IFR PT movements, I think that is the case in Sweden and is the reason why SAAB invented remote towers. Everyone else has jumped on the bandwagon because the bean-counters immediately saw the cost savings. Unfortunately for the bean counters the requirement to have an ATC Tower varies between countries. Australia is an extreme example where we allow PT aircraft to fly instrument approaches outside of controlled airspace into uncontrolled airports - very few "advanced' countries do so because it is too riskly. So why would we need remote towers? My solution, where the aerodrome needs a Tower (Ballina comes to mind), is for the airport to build a reasonably priced structure, staffed by reasonably paid controllers whose job it is to regulate runway movements and ensure that the circuit area remains safe (see Griffo and Porter comments), and instrument approaches are protected during daylight hours. This is the way I think Airservices is heading however my previous remarks about free-enterprise are still relevant. If the controllers (and Firies) work for the airport and are part of the local community then I believe Australia would get more efficient and less bureaucratic airspace management.
Porter - Tower movements are calculated either from flight progress strips or running sheets and are retained as evidence - I think non-towered airports record calls so they can send out bills.
Pera - The concept of a remote tower controlling multiple airports only works if the country regulations require ATC for IFR PT movements, I think that is the case in Sweden and is the reason why SAAB invented remote towers. Everyone else has jumped on the bandwagon because the bean-counters immediately saw the cost savings. Unfortunately for the bean counters the requirement to have an ATC Tower varies between countries. Australia is an extreme example where we allow PT aircraft to fly instrument approaches outside of controlled airspace into uncontrolled airports - very few "advanced' countries do so because it is too riskly. So why would we need remote towers? My solution, where the aerodrome needs a Tower (Ballina comes to mind), is for the airport to build a reasonably priced structure, staffed by reasonably paid controllers whose job it is to regulate runway movements and ensure that the circuit area remains safe (see Griffo and Porter comments), and instrument approaches are protected during daylight hours. This is the way I think Airservices is heading however my previous remarks about free-enterprise are still relevant. If the controllers (and Firies) work for the airport and are part of the local community then I believe Australia would get more efficient and less bureaucratic airspace management.
You can call it what you like, Havick. The 100+ punters down the back don't deserve to be in an operation where the primary method of collision avoidance is the pilots looking out the window to try to spot other aircraft. See and Avoid doesn't work, as you Americans have, and continue to, demonstrate.
I never disagreed that their shouldn’t be a tower or better separation when an airport hits a certain threshold.
I simply called bull on when you said it’s impossible to see anything out the front of any aircraft that has a couple of hairdryers under the wing or on the tail.
You can call it what you like, Havick. The 100+ punters down the back don't deserve to be in an operation where the primary method of collision avoidance is the pilots looking out the window to try to spot other aircraft. See and Avoid doesn't work, as you Americans have, and continue to, demonstrate.
I fail to understand why Bloggs is terrified of having to share airspace with anyone other that a member of his tribe without the need of a chaperone. Did they teach you that all private pilots are idiots in the airline or did you dream it up yourself?
Furthermore if you have the “pseudo professional disease” of late, rapid fire slurred radio calls, then don’t be surprised if someone gets confused.
My own encounters with rpt at places like YBHI, went just fine. They called clearly politely and relatively early, we just extended crosswind and upwind till they came past and then followed them. Total bugsmasher extra time about eight minutes.
If you can’t plan far enough ahead to get a feel for traffic, announce your intentions politely and negotiate your separation you shouldn’t be flying.
Furthermore if you have the “pseudo professional disease” of late, rapid fire slurred radio calls, then don’t be surprised if someone gets confused.
My own encounters with rpt at places like YBHI, went just fine. They called clearly politely and relatively early, we just extended crosswind and upwind till they came past and then followed them. Total bugsmasher extra time about eight minutes.
If you can’t plan far enough ahead to get a feel for traffic, announce your intentions politely and negotiate your separation you shouldn’t be flying.
Bloggsie’s legitimate concern is the pilots with finger trouble who are not broadcasting on the correct frequency, or have the volume turned down and are not hearing anyone else’s broadcasts, or are geographically confused by 180 degrees or otherwise not where they say they think they are - unalerted see and avoid is probably less risky than being altered to traffic that isn’t where it says it is - assuming they say anything at all on the correct frequency. We don’t know what we don’t know, and sometimes what we do know turns out to be inaccurate. (Ask e.g. Dom James about it...) Mildura gets much, much busier than Broken Hill.
Nonetheless, the fact remains: CASA, Airservices and the management of the RPT operators have decided that the risks at Mildura are acceptable. ‘Dirt road’ airspace and the corresponding ATS provided in it are good enough for Bloggsie’s 100+ punters down the back.
Nonetheless, the fact remains: CASA, Airservices and the management of the RPT operators have decided that the risks at Mildura are acceptable. ‘Dirt road’ airspace and the corresponding ATS provided in it are good enough for Bloggsie’s 100+ punters down the back.
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Awol57, yes, it was a GAAP, when they were called that. Pitched battles between the far west and the far east to call themselves the 'busiest' aerodromes in the southern hemisphere.
Mr Approach, yep, some aerodromes were using the flight strips, some weren't!
You still won't get a Tower at Mildura, no matter what the criteria. Or The Rat etc. I kinda enjoyed the the old FS days as a VFR. Pity it wasn't tweaked, morphed into a sustainable service.
And Bloggs, any chance you could point me in the direction of the stats you say that have the Yanks plowing into each other daily?
Mr Approach, yep, some aerodromes were using the flight strips, some weren't!
You still won't get a Tower at Mildura, no matter what the criteria. Or The Rat etc. I kinda enjoyed the the old FS days as a VFR. Pity it wasn't tweaked, morphed into a sustainable service.
And Bloggs, any chance you could point me in the direction of the stats you say that have the Yanks plowing into each other daily?
JT was where I was at, we used the "clicks" to work out movements. However the official ones via the strips were the go (our figures were pretty close from memory). I may have been post the time you are referring to however.
Thanks Griffo.
In relation to On Eyre's post I think Griffo has covered all the points in his post.
I most certainly do know the distinction between the functions of a FSU and ATC. and no, not too young to know the difference having just turn 61 and been employed in the aviation industry for over 40 years. And of those, 16.5 years as an FSO and 6.5 years of that served in YMIA from 1984 till its closure in 1990.
To a person we had great positive feed back from aircrew both airline and private pilots.
Don't get me wrong, No sour grapes here. I have a great job with one of the major airlines. It just always seemed a shame to shut down a system that seemed to work.
Fly safe and and play hard.
Cheers Greg
In relation to On Eyre's post I think Griffo has covered all the points in his post.
I most certainly do know the distinction between the functions of a FSU and ATC. and no, not too young to know the difference having just turn 61 and been employed in the aviation industry for over 40 years. And of those, 16.5 years as an FSO and 6.5 years of that served in YMIA from 1984 till its closure in 1990.
To a person we had great positive feed back from aircrew both airline and private pilots.
Don't get me wrong, No sour grapes here. I have a great job with one of the major airlines. It just always seemed a shame to shut down a system that seemed to work.
Fly safe and and play hard.
Cheers Greg
Last edited by hoss58; 14th Jan 2020 at 00:50. Reason: grammar
Thanks Griffo.
In relation to On Eyre's post I think Griffo has covered all the points in his post.
I most certainly do know the distinction between the functions of a FSU and ATC. and no, not too young to know the difference having just turn 61 and been employed in the aviation industry for over 40 years. And of those, 16.5 years as an FSO and 6.5 years of that served in YMIA from 1984 till its closure in 1990.
To a person we had great positive feed back from aircrew both airline and private pilots.
Don't get me wrong, No sour grapes here. I have a great job with one of the major airlines. It just always seemed a shame to shut down a system that seemed to work.
Fly safe and and play hard.
Cheers Greg
In relation to On Eyre's post I think Griffo has covered all the points in his post.
I most certainly do know the distinction between the functions of a FSU and ATC. and no, not too young to know the difference having just turn 61 and been employed in the aviation industry for over 40 years. And of those, 16.5 years as an FSO and 6.5 years of that served in YMIA from 1984 till its closure in 1990.
To a person we had great positive feed back from aircrew both airline and private pilots.
Don't get me wrong, No sour grapes here. I have a great job with one of the major airlines. It just always seemed a shame to shut down a system that seemed to work.
Fly safe and and play hard.
Cheers Greg
No slur was meant on previous FSO’s by the way.