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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

Old 8th Nov 2019, 23:53
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
Lol hands up all the women wanting to trade their Australian rights for those in Pakistan, India, China or Turkey?
You’ve totally misrepresented that post. No one is calling for the rights and status of women in Australia to be watered down to those of a third world country (Notwithstanding the fact Pakistan, India and Turkey had elected female PM’s earlier than Australia too).

But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time?

For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks?

And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality:

Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you

Last edited by dr dre; 9th Nov 2019 at 00:54.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 02:07
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post


You’ve totally misrepresented that post. No one is calling for the rights and status of women in Australia to be watered down to those of a third world country (Notwithstanding the fact Pakistan, India and Turkey had elected female PM’s earlier than Australia too).

But if countries in which the status of women is less than men have been able to integrate women better into flying roles before Australia, which supposedly has more gender equality, maybe it does say something about how our specific attitudes in Australian Aviation have developed over time?

For instance (genuine question as I’m not sure) was there any other nation in the late 70’s that was fighting court battles to keep females out of airline flight decks?

And it’s surprising to learn which nation has the highest number of female airline pilots? It’s not one that is renowned for gender equality:

Women airline pilots: The country with the most female pilots will surprise you
Behind a pay wall.


Sourced from Forbes.

Surely, there's room for a few more.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 02:32
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was View Post
Our legal system certainly seems to have that opinion.
Absolute crap,
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 02:41
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp View Post
This is what I observed in my career 34 years. Women tend to leave the job after “the fun wears off” also I notice a much higher percentage of women do not upgrade to Captain and are content to be professional F/O’s. I fly for a US carrier

Hahahahahahaha, after the fun wears off, what a bloody joke. The only people who think flying as a career is HARD work are pilots. I'm getting close to 40 yrs in and it's the best non-working job ever, even GA. You compare an airline captains pay to other professional areas and then compare the workload, no bloody comparison. We S/Off and go home and think nothing of work until the next S/on, see how that is for any other professional on that pay level. Then ask what the response would be if you said "Nah, not changing my schedule as I'm busy" lolololololol. We have it pretty bloody good, all things considered.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 02:47
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post
If one employs people of a particular demographic who meet 'min standard' instead of the best person for the job then that will inevitably and irrefutably affect standards.

No, not correct!

I think you're confusing standards with averages! A standard is a minimum level of accomplishment in completing a task, so if you employ people who meet that minimum there is no change in standards.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 02:51
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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You’ve totally misrepresented that post.
Yes. I was being facetious or mischievous.
I’m all for progress in this area and equal opportunity for both genders. I was just hoping to point out that things have been worse in the past and are worse in many other parts of the world. Pakistan , India and Turkey may well have elected female leaders but according to wiki Pakistan still has high rates of forced and child marriages, sexual violence is on the rise in India and honour killings still occur in Turkey. I’m no expert on this stuff but I am glad we discussing how we encourage women into aviation and not debating if they should be allowed to use DNA evidence in their rape trials or whether it’s distasteful to stone them to death when they are adulterous.
Anyway, the recruitment process is far from de-identified and if you’re an inexperienced young pilot at the moment your job prospects are brighter if you’re female. Simple.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 03:00
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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We S/Off and go home and think nothing of work until the next S/on,
Can I suggest that you are speaking for yourself not all of us. Myself and many of my colleagues spend a great deal of our "spare time" studying, reading, researching and generally trying to improve our knowledge and keep up with technology changes. Reading accident reports alone takes a huge amount of time. Not to mention arguing with idiot trolls on PPRuNe.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 06:19
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post

Anyway, the recruitment process is far from de-identified
Perhaps, but I assure you the ultimate selection process is made with no reference to gender. Merit based selection dominates. And just like in previous hiring booms I can also assure you a full bell curve of talent is employed with no dominating stereotype occupying any quartile.



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Old 9th Nov 2019, 07:13
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by crosscutter View Post
I can also assure you a full ***bell*** curve of talent is employed
Provided you ain’t got no ***Bell End***👎👎👎👎

🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆🍆💋🍑💦

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Old 9th Nov 2019, 07:30
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Let the numbers do the talking!

Are there any “professional female airline Pilots” with 2 children or more who are doing >850 hrs a year?

Cracker of a thread if anything else.

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Old 9th Nov 2019, 07:35
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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And just like in previous hiring booms I can also assure you a full bell curve of talent is employed
Yip I agree we’ve always had representatives from both ends of the distribution employed flying airliners.
I think that to achieve gender targets ( either way) will shift the normal to the left though wouldn’t you agree? It can’t really do anything else ( assuming you think that both genders are equally suited to flying airliners).
I assure you the ultimate selection process is made with no reference to gender.
I’ll take you at your word on that. There must have been a significant change to the process in the very recent past to achieve this. Can I ask how it is achieved? If 50 pilots pass to the final stage do they draw up 50 documents with photos, names, pastimes etc redacted and present those documents to the final selection committee?
Cheers
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 10:54
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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People do say “I don’t care about the gender of the pilots, I just want to see the best pilots recruited”, but they don’t define what criteria uncovers “the best”. If the recruiting process is disproportionately favouring females (no solid evidence has been shown that this is the case however) could it be said that it’s not direct discrimination in favour of female applicants, but possibly the recruiting criteria now places more weight in areas that females may have an advantage in?

Better understanding of empathy, better communication skills, more maturity, less driven by ego? I’ll add as a caveat I’m not saying that women definitely have advantages over men in those specific areas. But there are some areas of Non Technical skills where women probably have advantages over men, especially younger men just out of school, and that may be the factor that’s seeing a slightly higher proportion of females make it to the final stages. Using this theory obviously they will also choose men who excel in those areas over men who don’t. Just a thought.

Once upon a time recruitment for an airline was probably who had the most hours in their logbook/who went to the most exclusive all boys school/who was mates with the CP/who was in the recruiter’s Air Force squadron etc. I doubt whether truly the best were being recruited then either, in my personal opinion the system used now would be better.

If you asked all pilots to define the top 3 criteria that the best pilots would have to excel at you’d get hundreds of different answers.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 11:03
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Dr Dre - that’s a great post. Very well said.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 13:13
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A little birdie View Post


Bzzzz but thank you for playing anyway.

If you employ the best people then they will likely significantly exceed the ‘min standard’. Therefore the overall ‘average standard’ is likely to significantly exceed min standard. If you only employ those who just meet or are at min standard then that will become the average standard or at least drag down the average standard from the highs it once was. Therefore the standard has dropped. Below min? Probably not but still below what it could be.

Now you may be perfectly happy with that as an outcome (bottom dwellers and those who need the leg up often are) but when I put my family on an aeroplane or sign on for a tour of duty I’d prefer to know that the best people have been employed, not those who only meet ‘min standard’.
HAHAHAHA, talk about trying to twist your way out of that one. A standard (and remember this, it was your choice of word, not mine) is a measure, it doesn't change if it's exceeded. In the past when women were automatically excluded that didn't seem to result in a problem for THE STANDARD, so why would preferencing women over men result in a reduction in THE STANDARD, unless of course you believe that women overall are less capable than men. Is that what you believe?

Logic's a bitch and something you seem to have trouble with.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 13:27
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mikewil View Post
Yeah that's why when you look at the cadet classes at Virgin and Qantas, you see a 50/50 split, when the applicant ratio wouldn't be anything of the sort
Easily answered, but likely flew over your head. I would put that 50/50 split compared to your view of the likely applicant ratio as to the fact women are taught not to overreach, whereas men are told to have a go anyway. So my money is on the likelihood that overall the female applicants are of a higher standard.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 13:39
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed Dre.

I’ve been in Qantas long enough to know there were a lot of absolute tools employed years ago who wouldn’t be employed under the current culture, many for the reasons you mentioned. Some of that attitude still prevails, but is progressively being stamped out - and it has little to do with gender, but perhaps if there were more females in the organisation earlier, it would have been stamped out earlier.

However, I think the biggest problem (and the reason for this thread) is that the Company, from the CEO down, have made multiple public statements that they are targeting more female pilots, or actively seeking to improve the gender gap, The very fact that they say “improve” the gender gap implies that there currently exists a “problem” with the gender gap. It’s very convenient language because they get to imply that there is a problem with the gender gap without actually having to justify that there is a problem with the gender gap, or indeed, why. As others have pointed out, the gender gap in other vocational areas of the Company is apparently not a problem - only, it seems, with the pilots.

So long as there is doubt as to the equivalent merits of the larger number of females being employed, there will be friction. The females won’t know if they were employed on merit, and the male applicants won’t know either. That’s not a good state of affairs. Many contributors “in the know” have said it’s not the case, but an similar number “in the know” have said it is. The first QFTA course just happened to be 50/50. Coincidence?

The exact reason for the huge focus by Qantas on female pilots is unknown.

Possibilities:

1. It could be pure PR, Qantas is known for spending huge dollars on marketing while telling every other department to cut costs. The current CEO has previously shown talent for using his position to pursue a social agenda. But I actually doubt he hopes to attract more of the flying public to his airline simply because he targets more female pilots, so I don’t think he would do this from a pure business perspective.

2. Qantas (or it’s CEO) views the pilot employee group as arrogant, overpaid and underworked. They may have statistical data that the current female pilot demographic tend not to be involved in industrial activities, and to be potentially more compliant with the gradual but continued reduction in terms and conditions. Someone mentioned female Presidents earlier... how many females have been actively involved in AIPA in the past? I can only think of one: and she is now a management pilot actively standing next to AJ promoting more female pilots in Qantas. I could be wrong, but I don’t think she ever had any children either. That’s fine, but pretty much all other female pilots I know do have children, and don’t get involved in AIPA industrial work.

3. The female pilot demographic actually performs better than the males (according to whatever KPI’s), perhaps in terms of training failures, incidents, disciplinary matters, or are simply easier to deal with from an HR point of view.

Those are 3 possibilities that I can think of to explain the focus on targeting more females. I’m sure there could be other reasons.

Someone earlier in thread stated that they knew a lot of female pilots, but didn’t know any female pilots with “stay at home husbands”. My anecdotal evidence is the same. I actually have 2 close friends who are “stay at home husbands” - but their wives are both high-earning corporate executives. The rest of us can only wish...

Qantas is a largely international airline, and you don’t get to be a pilot with an international airline without going away from home for multi-day trips. In Qantas you could expect to be away for up to 10-11 days at a time on 3 of the types, or up to 6 days on the A330, and you currently don’t have a choice to avoid that, unless you bid to join the B737. Even on the B737 you can be away for 4 days (it would have been 6 if the latest EBA had been voted up). This is simply not friendly with children unless you have a stay at home partner, or a willing grandparent around the corner.

Not to say it can’t be done, of course, and there are a few who do it, and do it well. I’ve flown with many females. They pretty much fit in to the same bell curve as males... a few good ones, most average, and a few were crap. The ones I’ve known have all taken extensive time off work for children, but most of them have come back. A couple resigned to be stay at home mums. Many of those who stayed took advantage of “carer” legislation to make sure they only worked part time and had weekends off - thus ensuring that all the male pilots (who also had kids, but didn’t qualify as carers because they had a wife) did all the weekend work. And that’s with a 5% female demographic. I’m sure the males with kids are really looking forward to a 50% demographic of females who are legally entitled to weekends off.

The ones who worked part time were generally average. I won’t say all, because some were great because they acknowledged that they worked part time and they kept their eye on the books in their time off and they knew that they weren’t particularly recent and kept their eye on the ball. But some didn’t, and you could could tell as you had to prompt them regularly for simple things as their mind was still on the kids with Grandma.

So there are many reasons why this job is not so attractive to females. So to imply that the gender gap needs to be “fixed” is disingenuous.



Last edited by Derfred; 9th Nov 2019 at 17:02.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 18:28
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Given the existence of the gender pay gap. Could I be forgiven for thinking that a largely female pilot group would be a cheaper and more compliant workforce?
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 18:58
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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“Yeah that's why when you look at the cadet classes at Virgin and Qantas, you see a 50/50 split, when the applicant ratio wouldn't be anything of the sort”

Are you sure about that, you have seen the applicant numbers and dissected them based upon gender?

You will find that there are a far greater proportion of women applicants for cadet positions than for direct entry positions from people already in the industry.

“Are there any professional female airline Pilots with 2 children or more who are doing >850 hrs a year?”

Yes, plenty. Some with 3 kids. And some with 4.

“more weight in areas that females may have an advantage in?” followed by “more maturity”.

Yes indeed a very good point. Scientific research has shown that females start maturing at an earlier age than males by up to 4 years and is evident even to the point where brain development finishes around the mid twenties.

So if your target demographic is this age group and an emphasis is placed on maturity then females are the clear choice.

“implies that there currently exists a problem with the gender gap.”

I am guessing you are male?

“the gender gap in other vocational areas of the Company is apparently not a problem”

As pointed out before, the other vocation where a significant gender gap exists is engineering and Qantas are taking steps to rebalance this distribution.

Mechanics, like pilots, are where the true global shortage within the aviation industry lies and it would be remiss of airlines not to address this problem.

Check in staff, not such a pressing issue.

“So long as there is doubt as to the equivalent merits of the larger number of females being employed”

There is absolutely no doubt at all.

“The exact reason for the huge focus by Qantas on female pilots is unknown.”

It is very much known. Qantas are seeking to broaden the applicant pool from which they employ pilots.

“They may have statistical data that the current female pilot demographic tend not to be involved in industrial activities”

They MAY also have statistical data that martians are planning to crew their next batch of aircraft too.

“So there are many reasons why this job is not so attractive to females”

Your inaccurate representation of carer legislation not withstanding, your last several paragraphs cut to the heart of the issue we are discussing.

For more than two thirds of Qantas’s history, pilots were exclusively male. The first female to undergo selection for Qantas was asked at her interview if she preferred “tall women”.

The airline pilot industry was built by men and favors men and men will need to adapt to a changing world where rosters and carer lines and cockpit conversations no longer work exclusively in their favor.

Its called the price of doing business. Women exist, they make up half of the the population and if men lose some weekends off in order to accommodate women then its a small price to pay for a progressive society.

Real change always results in the loss of power.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 19:07
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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2. Qantas (or it’s CEO) views the pilot employee group as arrogant, overpaid and underworked. They may have statistical data that the current female pilot demographic tend not to be involved in industrial activities, and to be potentially more compliant with the gradual but continued reduction in terms and conditions.
When personality studies are conducted on large scale across nationalities and cultures women are, on average , found to be more ‘agreeable’ than men. If you believe that ( it appears to be likely in my personal experience) then increasing the ratio of women in an industrial group will make that group ever so slightly more ‘agreeable’ as a whole. Personally I doubt that is a primary motivator though. I imagine that a broad belief in equality for women and minority’s is a more likely driver and that is ( IMO) admirable. How you go about creating equality without actively discriminating against others is where it gets difficult.
If I was a hot-shot young white male pilot with low experience but high skills in 2019 I would probably feel comfortable in my ability to achieve the career I want but if I was an average young white male pilot with low experience I would be shifting in my seat wondering if the current drive for female pilots was going to see me working at my second choice Airline on inferior conditions while someone I was slightly better than got the role I wanted.
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Old 9th Nov 2019, 20:36
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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What a thread...!
My 2 cents.
My years of flying has shown me:
Some female pilots are good pilots. Some are okay pilots. Some aren't good pilots.
Some male pilots are good pilots. Some are okay pilots. Some aren't good pilots.
I've seen no evidence of one gender being better at the job than the other, so I guess that a fair "target" for Qantas and others, would be to target a similar % of females/males hired to the amount of commercial licenses issued each year to females/males. This % of females will undoubtedly continue to rise, as will the numbers of females in the top jobs.

I don't think anyone, male or female, wants to get a job because of a Quota, Goal or Target, but on merit.

As for the pay gap. At least in the USA a pilot pay gap can be explained easily. It's the seniority system.
The number of females becoming pilots has risen alot over the past 10 years. As such, most of these pilots are still at a regional, or first officers in a major. As time passes, this "pay gap", will disappear.
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