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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

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Qantas’ search for female pilots has led to more workplace harassment - Quartz

Old 8th Nov 2019, 08:53
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by exfocx View Post
Icarus, the Tone Deaf pilot! Choice, what sort of stupid comment is that? Women, as the stats show, Have.No.Choice, or maybe, they're just really accommodating people, that they do nearly all the heavy lifting. Dumb or what!
Too hell with being TONE DEAF. I don’t care if that offends you, PC has ruined the planet. Freedom of speech includes offending, you dont like it then best you stay home and cook so not to be offended by society or people’s thoughts and expressions.

Grow up...if you can’t off to your little safe space you go!
Daddy Fantastic is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2019, 09:17
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Daddy fantastic...

I agree 100%
John Citizen is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2019, 09:32
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Cutting out the emotional BS, there is one real problem that concerns me....

That is the confidential memo to managers requiring a justification report to senior management if a female pilot is recommended for disciplinary action, downgrading, failure to perform other adverse findings or termination.

THAT is the dangerous and expensive side to “quotas”, not the recruitment side.

It costs lots of money to bribe anyone but white males into accepting job loss for non performance because you have, as a manager, to guard against discrimination lawsuits. That is, of course, if you can convince senior management whose kpi’s include “diversity” that you have a non performing member of a protected species in the first place.

To put that another way, you will know you are operating an unbiased system when failure rates are equal.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 09:45
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Yes there was discrimination in the past, but that doesn't mean there needs to be 'revenge' and discriminate the other way now. Should just learn from our mistakes and hire based on ability, because there is no questioning that hiring based on a quota is discrimination. If you don't agree with that then I guess you are not for equality but rather for vengeance. Personally couldn't care less about someone's gender as long as they are a nice person and good at their job.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 10:17
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
By definition, the alleged Qantas target for gender representation means that qualified male candidates will be passed over in favor of female candidates that meet threshold minimum requirements until such time as the target is deemed to be achieved. Basic maths.

That means also by definition that males with equal or higher skill levels than women will be rejected.
I do wonder how much this is going on in reality though.


I am female, work at QANTAS and have a degree in aviation. I also hold a PPL and have lots of volunteer work in aviation. The application specifically asks about volunteering, studying, etc.


Got rejected for the cadetship on the first stage. All the successful applicants (male and female) had less flying experience than me. They want ab initio pilots.


So whilst there is a big push for female pilots, it really do see to be exaggerated here: eg it common to see in the recruiting threads claims that being female is “guarantee” for a pilot spot. The cadetship is the lowest skilled entry point for their pilots so if they’re going to ignore qualifications in favour of gender wouldn’t they start at the easiest level?


As for the sexual harassment thing: in my experience sexual harassment appears to be commonplace in aviation. I’ve see it in other areas like air traffic control, and even at the local aero club. I personally found that it was older men who would insist on calling every woman “girly” or “darling” who were the worst perpetrators. I can’t think of anytime I had a problem with a younger person.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 11:41
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post


A regularly overlooked point here. I know several long standing female pilots who cringe at the thought that their gender is effectively devaluing their hard work and dedication. If women pilots really had any self respect they would reject the quota system and do it the old fashioned way.
Hear hear.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 12:17
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Clare Prop View Post
Hear hear.
As a long standing female pilot...rubbish. I wholeheartedly agree with targets and the fact that we are pulling together to encourage more female applicants to these positions. I care about the best person for the job and I believe in the past there has been a shortage of good applicants because females have been encouraged by society not to train as pilots. It is different now. We will not be bullied any more.

There are no quotas. Recruitment data is de identified for the final decision. So sorry (not) it is hard to accept that the higher rate of female pilot recruitment means that the female applicants are doing better in assessment...and that those who are protesting are most likely those who would not have got a job had there been more competition from female candidates.


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Old 8th Nov 2019, 12:22
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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You know what really shits me about male dominated work places? That they are male dominated.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 12:49
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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I've worked with and trained female pilots. They are just like male pilots, some great, some not so great. I really don't understand what housework has to do with it.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 12:58
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
Too hell with being TONE DEAF. I don’t care if that offends you, PC has ruined the planet. Freedom of speech includes offending, you dont like it then best.....
...you develop ways of dealing with a world that cannot agree with you 100% of the time. Being offended doesn't make you right. But it will make you feel entitled. I recommend choosing not to be offended at the drop of a hat.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 13:00
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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What century were you born in to assume that women make the better parent, what science do you base that on?
Our legal system certainly seems to have that opinion.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 13:25
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 17:32
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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“So if you want to be a mother be a responsible mother and look after the child the way nature intended.”

I am really unclear as to why we are even discussing the whole childbirth issue here (despite the fact that it was central to Ansett’s argument when trying to prevent women from flying).

My wife was a professional her entire life and raised 2 kids. Of the 40 years spent working she was off work for childbirth and breast feeding for probably less than a year in total.

“good for you if you want to be a professional pilot but then you earn it on merit, no quotas”

Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia, which is why females still only occupy about 5% of the cockpit seats available.

The only quota system I am aware of was the one that ensured only men could fly airliners, a system that makes a complete mockery of the “best person for the job” argument so commonly regurgitated on this thread.

“I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms”

You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission?

There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.

Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 19:22
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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You are aware that Australia graduated its first female fighter pilots in the military only 12 months ago and only as a result of a condemning report by the Human Rights Commission?

There have been females flying fighters in other countries including several muslim countries for over 80 years.

Australia has been beaten by Pakistan, India, China, Turkey just to name a few. America and the UK are an entire generation ahead of Australia.
Lol hands up all the women wanting to trade their Australian rights for those in Pakistan, India, China or Turkey?
Shout out to the USA and the UK for helping us maintain our democratic freedoms which allows us to advance the rights of women and minorities to create a fairer society.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 19:44
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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NFPAR, good on you! Regarding harassment, my experience as a manager was the. opposite of yours; older guys were well behaved because they knew the employment consequences of a harassment allegation - in business an allegation is enough to get you fired. It was the young twenty/thirty somethings I had to counsel, they often thought they were just being funny.

What concerns me, as I have said (and witnessed) is having double standards not for hiring, but for retention.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 19:54
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
Can we drift the thread away from housework and towards politics? I just want to point out how lucky some of us are to be in democratic western nations. Many would see this as a good problem to have. Under different political and religious systems , in many countries, in 2019, women are not educated to the same level as men and don’t have the same opportunities to make choices like “ shall I train to become a pilot or not”. I am very grateful that I live in a country where we are so heavily influenced by our predominantly Christian history and our hard won democratic freedoms.....and I’m not religious. Big ups to our terrible system that is better than all the rest and thank you to my grandmothers generation for their sacrifices circa seventy years ago.
But this was the case in Australia until very recently. Girls' used to not be allowed to do many subjects at school and courses at Uni that boys were, and there was a huge cultural bias toward many that they theoretically could- only a tiny percentage of doctors and lawyers, and effectively ZERO tradespeople used to be female, as an example.Many third world countries were actually way ahead of us as far as Female empowerment was concerned- India had it's first female prime minister before we had our first female airline pilot, and Pakistan before we would allow females to fly in the RAAF!

Your Grandmother would have been barred from many professions and on a different pay scale to men for most she COULD do.

We have come a long way- it would be foolish to think we are finished redressing injustices of the past.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 21:39
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Kremin View Post
Thats probably true but in my experience a large percentage of women drop by the wayside over the span of the average career. Few seem to want to be 60 year old pilots.
This is what I observed in my career 34 years. Women tend to leave the job after “the fun wears off” also I notice a much higher percentage of women do not upgrade to Captain and are content to be professional F/O’s. I fly for a US carrier
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 22:17
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Orange future View Post
Which is precisely what is happening. There are NO quotas and have never been quotas to favor women in Qantas or any airline in Australia
Yeah that's why when you look at the cadet classes at Virgin and Qantas, you see a 50/50 split, when the applicant ratio wouldn't be anything of the sort
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 22:21
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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“Women tend to leave the job after the fun wears off”

I suspect this may be the case to a certain extent although all of the women I have worked with in the past 30 years are still flying to the best of my knowledge.

In my experience in the industry, many many of my male pilot friends would love to no longer be flying but are type cast in the role and have no option but to keep flying. The fun has worn off however there is no plan B and many of my mates feel trapped by the golden handcuffs.

The vast majority of these male friends lack a partner that has the professional qualifications to be earning a salary that will permit these guys to quit and maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.

Many of my male friends who fly have partners that dont work at all.





The few women I know in the industry have partners who earn as much or more and can provide for the family were the wife to leave the job. I actually know of no women pilots whose partner does not work.
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Old 8th Nov 2019, 23:50
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure if they are quotas, but the cadetships definitely have recruitment goals in terms of gender and this in itself is discrimination as there shouldn't be any favouring due to ones gender.
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