Byron Bailey, The Australian, MCAS
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In complete contact is the thread on this site regarding B737 picklefork failures. Lots of hugely qualified people in serious discussion. This thread? Not so much.
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Australia
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I think it smacks of arrogance to dismiss as negligent the efforts of these crew as who died fighting an aircraft actively trying to murder them. That an excellent crew in the past saved a similar situation does not obviate the aircraft of blame in this incident, lest you also believe that Sullys successful handling of a double engine failure at 3000 in the middle of a dense city means all future crew who fail to deliver the same result should be considered incompetent.
These crew did not suffer a simple MCAS failure in isolation. They had to deal with all manner of unreliable speed indications, a non stop stick shaker and the fact MCAS is masked within these failures, and does not behave like a 'vanilla' stab trim runaway. Not to mention of course they were never told about MCAS, trained on its failure modes or had an opportunity to witness this failure, one that was clearly inevitable given the stupidity of Boeing's design to include a single data input. Further, given the speed at which it operates (with everything else going on), you can disconnect the trim switches and no longer have that spurious input, yet in a very short space of time it wont make a difference as the forces required to rectify the out of trim situation are too significant to overcome anyway, as the Ethiopian crew found out.
Boeing needs to build a plane that can be safely operated by all crew, not just the Ace of the Base such as yourself.
These crew did not suffer a simple MCAS failure in isolation. They had to deal with all manner of unreliable speed indications, a non stop stick shaker and the fact MCAS is masked within these failures, and does not behave like a 'vanilla' stab trim runaway. Not to mention of course they were never told about MCAS, trained on its failure modes or had an opportunity to witness this failure, one that was clearly inevitable given the stupidity of Boeing's design to include a single data input. Further, given the speed at which it operates (with everything else going on), you can disconnect the trim switches and no longer have that spurious input, yet in a very short space of time it wont make a difference as the forces required to rectify the out of trim situation are too significant to overcome anyway, as the Ethiopian crew found out.
Boeing needs to build a plane that can be safely operated by all crew, not just the Ace of the Base such as yourself.
Probably didn't help that the crew in the ET accident missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or a more simple question - what do you do if controls are not working (correctly) and you want to descend?
A) Advance the power lever
B) Retard the power lever
C) Invert the aircraft
Basic airman-ship only question.
Now if you wish to not descend what would/should you do?
The speed at which the crew were unable to retire the aircraft in the ET accident.?
Probably didn't help that the crew in the ET accident missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
Probably didn't help that the crew in the ET accident missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
What drove me to post however is a fundamental disagreement with LS' position. He seems almost proud of the fatal handling characteristics of past aircraft, and dismisses potential pitfalls in the Max as nothing more than triviality for a 'skillful' crew. It reads almost like a pissing competition.
Originally Posted by LS
"Back in the day", we coped."
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose its futile at this stage to reiterate for the umpteenth time...
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage
TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate
Know your aircraft
Fly your aircraft
Thats what you are paid the big dollars for
Its not that f@#king difficult
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage
TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate
Know your aircraft
Fly your aircraft
Thats what you are paid the big dollars for
Its not that f@#king difficult
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Know your aircraft
Lookleft, It would help if posters had at least some idea of what they were talking about. But that’s the internet isnt it?
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, we are going round and round.
As a 20,000 hour airline Pilot I will put my last, my very last, 2 cents worth in on this topic.
Every B737 Pilot worth his or her salary thinks they would have done better in both of this crash scenarios.
We can go round and round as much as you like but after many, many years of simulator exercises with Unusual Attitudes , Airspeed Disagree etc. etc. I am convinced that 98% plus of properly trained mainline crew with major legacy carriers would NOT have managed these events ending in a hole in the ground. Whatever the finding of the enquire into MCAS it will not be the end. The expansion of third world low cost carriers is a huge training and standards issue and isn’t going away. Just wait for the next shoe to drop.
As a 20,000 hour airline Pilot I will put my last, my very last, 2 cents worth in on this topic.
Every B737 Pilot worth his or her salary thinks they would have done better in both of this crash scenarios.
We can go round and round as much as you like but after many, many years of simulator exercises with Unusual Attitudes , Airspeed Disagree etc. etc. I am convinced that 98% plus of properly trained mainline crew with major legacy carriers would NOT have managed these events ending in a hole in the ground. Whatever the finding of the enquire into MCAS it will not be the end. The expansion of third world low cost carriers is a huge training and standards issue and isn’t going away. Just wait for the next shoe to drop.
I suppose its futile at this stage to reiterate for the umpteenth time...
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage
TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate
Know your aircraft
Fly your aircraft
Thats what you are paid the big dollars for
Its not that f@#king difficult
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage
TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate
Know your aircraft
Fly your aircraft
Thats what you are paid the big dollars for
Its not that f@#king difficult
I'm interested as to how the ET crew remaining in TOGA didn't seal their fate. Given that their airspeed was in the ballpark of 380 kts during their ordeal, a speed such that manual trimming was impossible resulting in them reactivating the trim cutout switches as a last resort, love to hear your enlightened thoughts.
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 15th Oct 2019 at 13:09.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
das, are you actually a Pilot? It’s pretty tedious arguing with people who clearly clueless but are chock full of ego.
What is your experience?
Why do do you feel the need to comment?
Where does your grievance come from?
TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
What is your experience?
Why do do you feel the need to comment?
Where does your grievance come from?
TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
das, are you actually a Pilot? Yes
It’s pretty tedious arguing with people who clearly clueless but are chock full of ego.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Irony is dead.
What is your experience?
20 years.
Why do do you feel the need to comment?
I don't like self proclaimed 'aviation gods'. You're free to your opinion, its as worthless as mine, but the manner in which you go about asserting it, despite the fact its at odds with every regulatory agency on the face of the planet irks me. You don't get to just write this off as 'brown people can't fly planes'.
Where does your grievance come from?
Refer above
TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
The ET crew didn't disconnect the AT. As a result, it stayed in TOGA. TOGA make plane go fast!.... Which is what sealed their fate, precisely as I said.
"What is it about that that you don’t understand?"
It’s pretty tedious arguing with people who clearly clueless but are chock full of ego.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Irony is dead.
What is your experience?
20 years.
Why do do you feel the need to comment?
I don't like self proclaimed 'aviation gods'. You're free to your opinion, its as worthless as mine, but the manner in which you go about asserting it, despite the fact its at odds with every regulatory agency on the face of the planet irks me. You don't get to just write this off as 'brown people can't fly planes'.
Where does your grievance come from?
Refer above
TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
The ET crew didn't disconnect the AT. As a result, it stayed in TOGA. TOGA make plane go fast!.... Which is what sealed their fate, precisely as I said.
"What is it about that that you don’t understand?"
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
George, das has form, wait til the big words come out!
The peurile comment posted above should give you the headsup you require.
He does have 3 or 400 hours as an FO on an airbus afterall, show some respect.
who died fighting an aircraft actively trying to murder them.
He does have 3 or 400 hours as an FO on an airbus afterall, show some respect.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose the irony of accusing me of being puerile, whilst you engage in precisely that behavior by following me all over the forum like a faithful little lapdog is lost on you. No matter.
I haven't received a breathless PM threatening me with legal action in a few days though, getting a bit behind schedule aren't we?
murder............what a moronic statement. Boeing will find you hiding behind your $3.75 a month firewall mate.
The MAX had its flaps retracted. TOGA is a mode. A mode that had nothing to do with the aircrafts state at the time. Nor it’s mode. Nothing.
The power setting was CLIMB. The vertical FMA was VNAV SPD, or less likely MCP SPD. The autrothrottle FMA was N1. If it was in TOGA, it would say so in big letters.
That’s why every time you repeat ‘TOGA’, it sounds like you don’t know what you’re talking about. Here’s a picture to help you. Enjoy.
MAX FMA Takeoff profile.