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Byron Bailey, The Australian, MCAS

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Byron Bailey, The Australian, MCAS

Old 15th Oct 2019, 10:18
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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In complete contact is the thread on this site regarding B737 picklefork failures. Lots of hugely qualified people in serious discussion. This thread? Not so much.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 10:25
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
Lots of hugely qualified people in serious discussion. This thread? Not so much.
Hardly surprising given the few Aussies that have flown the Max.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 10:33
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
In complete contact is the thread on this site regarding B737 picklefork failures. Lots of hugely qualified people in serious discussion. This thread? Not so much.
Quite normal, considering the subject of the thread : discussion about some controversial articles by some 'aviation expert' journalist in Australia.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 10:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
Personally I think it smacks of arrogance to dismiss as negligent the efforts of these crew as who died fighting an aircraft actively trying to murder them. That an excellent crew in the past saved a similar situation does not obviate the aircraft of blame in this incident, lest you also believe that Sullys successful handling of a double engine failure at 3000 in the middle of a dense city means all future crew who fail to deliver the same result should be considered incompetent.

These crew did not suffer a simple MCAS failure in isolation. They had to deal with all manner of unreliable speed indications, a non stop stick shaker and the fact MCAS is masked within these failures, and does not behave like a 'vanilla' stab trim runaway. Not to mention of course they were never told about MCAS, trained on its failure modes or had an opportunity to witness this failure, one that was clearly inevitable given the stupidity of Boeing's design to include a single data input. Further, given the speed at which it operates (with everything else going on), you can disconnect the trim switches and no longer have that spurious input, yet in a very short space of time it wont make a difference as the forces required to rectify the out of trim situation are too significant to overcome anyway, as the Ethiopian crew found out.

Boeing needs to build a plane that can be safely operated by all crew, not just the Ace of the Base such as yourself.
The speed at which the crew were unable to retire the aircraft in the ET accident.?
Probably didn't help that the crew in the ET accident missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 10:46
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
Basic airmanship : what does an aircraft do when you reduce power ?

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Old 15th Oct 2019, 11:45
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Basic airmanship : what does an aircraft do when you reduce power ?

Or a more simple question - what do you do if controls are not working (correctly) and you want to descend?

A) Advance the power lever
B) Retard the power lever
C) Invert the aircraft

Basic airman-ship only question.

Now if you wish to not descend what would/should you do?
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 11:59
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
The speed at which the crew were unable to retire the aircraft in the ET accident.?
Probably didn't help that the crew in the ET accident missed the basic action of reducing from TOGA power after takeoff.
Take off power remained set the whole of the short flight until hitting the ground. Basic Airmanship missing in their training somewhere.
No doubt TOGA sealed their fate. And yes, I'm sure in time we'll identify a number of failures by the crew.

What drove me to post however is a fundamental disagreement with LS' position. He seems almost proud of the fatal handling characteristics of past aircraft, and dismisses potential pitfalls in the Max as nothing more than triviality for a 'skillful' crew. It reads almost like a pissing competition.

Originally Posted by LS
"Back in the day", we coped."
That entire attitude belongs in the sea in my books. As I said originally, Boeing has a responsibility to build an aircraft that is safe to operate for all crew, not just the PPRuNe test pilot network. We're not all rockstars, I know i'm not. And while I would hope that given the situation these 2 crews faced, that I could safely resolve it, I'm reticent to sit here and monday morning quarterback them to the point where I dismiss the role Boeings design failures played and instead heap all blame on the crew, labeling them nothing but incompetent.

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Old 15th Oct 2019, 12:10
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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I suppose its futile at this stage to reiterate for the umpteenth time...
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage

TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate

Know your aircraft

Fly your aircraft

Thats what you are paid the big dollars for

Its not that [email protected]#king difficult
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 12:23
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
Know your aircraft

Fly your aircraft

Thats what you are paid the big dollars for

Its not that [email protected]#king difficult
It seems that American test pilots and many CAAs' worldwide feel differently.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 12:25
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Know your aircraft
That really is the problem George, it is difficult to know your aircraft when the manufacturer doesn't even disclose what they have put into the aircraft. I'm sure if the Lion Air crew and the Ethiopian crew were given simulator training on what MCAS was all about they probably would have flown out of the problem. The fact is no MAX crew were given that level of training as Boeing had convinced the FAA that extra sim training was not required. Two fatal accidents, similar crew response same aircraft type. Explain to us all why the MAX has been grounded for so long if the accidents were caused simply by the mishandling of some B team pilots?

Lookleft, It would help if posters had at least some idea of what they were talking about. But thatís the internet isnt it?
​​​​​​​Couldn't agree with you more George
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:06
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, we are going round and round.
As a 20,000 hour airline Pilot I will put my last, my very last, 2 cents worth in on this topic.
Every B737 Pilot worth his or her salary thinks they would have done better in both of this crash scenarios.
We can go round and round as much as you like but after many, many years of simulator exercises with Unusual Attitudes , Airspeed Disagree etc. etc. I am convinced that 98% plus of properly trained mainline crew with major legacy carriers would NOT have managed these events ending in a hole in the ground. Whatever the finding of the enquire into MCAS it will not be the end. The expansion of third world low cost carriers is a huge training and standards issue and isn’t going away. Just wait for the next shoe to drop.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:09
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
I suppose its futile at this stage to reiterate for the umpteenth time...
Airspeed Disagree Non Normal Checklist
Autopilot.......Disengage
Autothrottle......Disengage

TOGA didn’t seal anybody’s fate

Know your aircraft

Fly your aircraft

Thats what you are paid the big dollars for

Its not that [email protected]#king difficult
The PPRuNe test pilot alliance are out in full force tonight!

I'm interested as to how the ET crew remaining in TOGA didn't seal their fate. Given that their airspeed was in the ballpark of 380 kts during their ordeal, a speed such that manual trimming was impossible resulting in them reactivating the trim cutout switches as a last resort, love to hear your enlightened thoughts.

Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 15th Oct 2019 at 14:09.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:21
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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das, are you actually a Pilot? It’s pretty tedious arguing with people who clearly clueless but are chock full of ego.
What is your experience?
Why do do you feel the need to comment?
Where does your grievance come from?
TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:46
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
das, are you actually a Pilot? Yes
It’s pretty tedious arguing with people who clearly clueless but are chock full of ego.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Irony is dead.

What is your experience?
20 years.

Why do do you feel the need to comment?
I don't like self proclaimed 'aviation gods'. You're free to your opinion, its as worthless as mine, but the manner in which you go about asserting it, despite the fact its at odds with every regulatory agency on the face of the planet irks me. You don't get to just write this off as 'brown people can't fly planes'.

Where does your grievance come from?
Refer above

TOGA is an autothrottle mode.
D I S C O N N E C T the autothrottle.
Its what the recall items say.
What is it about that that you don’t understand?
The ET crew didn't disconnect the AT. As a result, it stayed in TOGA. TOGA make plane go fast!.... Which is what sealed their fate, precisely as I said.
"What is it about that that you don’t understand?"

I did enjoy the ad hominem though. Thanks for playing.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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George, das has form, wait til the big words come out!

who died fighting an aircraft actively trying to murder them.
The peurile comment posted above should give you the headsup you require.

He does have 3 or 400 hours as an FO on an airbus afterall, show some respect.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 917
ad hominem
Whuurp, it's started, first come the medium big words.

Oh, and George, watch out, he'll find out your identity and post it online for all to see.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:54
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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edit. Removing post to attempt to get thread back on track.

Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 15th Oct 2019 at 14:24.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 13:57
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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The 20 years 'experience' he mentions is in a C172 outa Bankstown, mis-representing himself to be an experienced RPT pilot.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 14:02
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 917
I suppose the irony of accusing me of being puerile, whilst you engage in precisely that behavior by following me all over the forum like a faithful little lapdog is lost on you. No matter.
Don't flatter yourself, I happened to be reading fairly informed comment on this thread, not contributing, as you'd noticed (because I'm not experienced in the subject matter) and then guess who popped up? calling all and sundry idiots?

I haven't received a breathless PM threatening me with legal action in a few days though, getting a bit behind schedule aren't we?
Mate, give me an excuse. See how your employer would enjoy having one of their most inexperienced right seat warmers exposed for calling experienced aviators idiots etc.

murder............what a moronic statement. Boeing will find you hiding behind your $3.75 a month firewall mate.
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Old 15th Oct 2019, 17:07
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat View Post
I'm interested as to how the ET crew remaining in TOGA didn't seal their fate.
I think the issue youíre having is this; youíre using terminology that you donít understand. Amusing, given the lashing youíve attempted to deal out.

The MAX had its flaps retracted. TOGA is a mode. A mode that had nothing to do with the aircrafts state at the time. Nor itís mode. Nothing.

The power setting was CLIMB. The vertical FMA was VNAV SPD, or less likely MCP SPD. The autrothrottle FMA was N1. If it was in TOGA, it would say so in big letters.

Thatís why every time you repeat ĎTOGAí, it sounds like you donít know what youíre talking about. Hereís a picture to help you. Enjoy.




MAX FMA Takeoff profile.
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