Project Sunrise
I don’t work for JQ or even any airline in Australia. So nothing that AIPA does affects me in any way.
I’ll give the boys and girls at QF credit for a few things. You’re all very good at what you do even if some of it is maybe a little anal. The rest of the world will agree with me on that, because I hear it from other pilots from all over the world.
But here’s where you fall down. You’re all so stuck in the past that any hint of progress into the future, there’s backlash and condemnation and instant concerns more about your pay, than the airline that you used to be; pioneering and adaptable. You all complain there’s no growth or anything new, but you’re not willing to be the ones who do what you have to do to make these things happen. Don’t look at the problems, see the solutions. Be the first to come up with pioneering ways to combat the health and fatigue issues of long haul flying and accept that maybe you might have to give something up to do it, for the future pilots.
Imagine the conversations from future QF pilots “the past generation of pilots sacrificed some of their pay so that we have long healthy careers”, rather than the alternative, “Ohh there goes Emirates doing those routes that we had an opportunity to do, but the past generation of pilots were more concerned about night credits and their wallets than the health of us”.
I’ll give the boys and girls at QF credit for a few things. You’re all very good at what you do even if some of it is maybe a little anal. The rest of the world will agree with me on that, because I hear it from other pilots from all over the world.
But here’s where you fall down. You’re all so stuck in the past that any hint of progress into the future, there’s backlash and condemnation and instant concerns more about your pay, than the airline that you used to be; pioneering and adaptable. You all complain there’s no growth or anything new, but you’re not willing to be the ones who do what you have to do to make these things happen. Don’t look at the problems, see the solutions. Be the first to come up with pioneering ways to combat the health and fatigue issues of long haul flying and accept that maybe you might have to give something up to do it, for the future pilots.
Imagine the conversations from future QF pilots “the past generation of pilots sacrificed some of their pay so that we have long healthy careers”, rather than the alternative, “Ohh there goes Emirates doing those routes that we had an opportunity to do, but the past generation of pilots were more concerned about night credits and their wallets than the health of us”.
Twas me who said sky gods and I was using it as a reference to the fact that nothing seems to please the QFsters that are on Proooon.
Apologies Morno!
Tequila Sunrise will happen if the aircraft can do it, so make it work for you!
Apologies Morno!
Tequila Sunrise will happen if the aircraft can do it, so make it work for you!
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Morno,
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
Morno,
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
Morno,
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.
Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.
This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!
Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.
Cheers
If I were a QF long haul pilot, I would be pushing for more research to be done over an extended period of time, so that you have scientific data to fight your future battles with. It's like my young son saying that he won't do something I ask and answering with "just 'cause". You have some data that says shift work is bad for your health, but you have no data that delves into the world of long haul flying over an extended period of time. Get it, and you might have something to fight with.
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And therein lies the problem.
QF pilots are saying we want more data if we are going to be subject to 22 hour TOD, we want scientific data. The Company says here is 787 pay minus 10%, we don't want pay night credits for THREE pilot ops (Newsflash people:the 787 doesn't get night credits for 4 crew ops), our Scientific Research is 3 flights, if you don't sign the agreement by the New Year then we will invest in Frequent Flyers etc. Why the rush from the Company? They knew the LH EBA was expiring end of June, Project Sunrise has been going in one form or another for 18 months, yet suddenly...
It smells just like Red Q or Jetstar HK, publicity now, details (Regulatory Approval?) later.
Have a good read on how Singapore Airlines approached SIN- New York. A measured approach, that included scientists going to the homes of both flight attendants and pilots the day before the pattern.
As for QF LG pilots not changing, what do you think the last EBA was about? It was the end of Legacy Terms, a 30% productivity gain for the company.
The SH EBA expired August last year. 18 months of negotiating (if you can call it that) and we are no nearer a sign-off on that. Engineers was about the same time.
Why the rush for LH?
QF pilots are saying we want more data if we are going to be subject to 22 hour TOD, we want scientific data. The Company says here is 787 pay minus 10%, we don't want pay night credits for THREE pilot ops (Newsflash people:the 787 doesn't get night credits for 4 crew ops), our Scientific Research is 3 flights, if you don't sign the agreement by the New Year then we will invest in Frequent Flyers etc. Why the rush from the Company? They knew the LH EBA was expiring end of June, Project Sunrise has been going in one form or another for 18 months, yet suddenly...
It smells just like Red Q or Jetstar HK, publicity now, details (Regulatory Approval?) later.
Have a good read on how Singapore Airlines approached SIN- New York. A measured approach, that included scientists going to the homes of both flight attendants and pilots the day before the pattern.
As for QF LG pilots not changing, what do you think the last EBA was about? It was the end of Legacy Terms, a 30% productivity gain for the company.
The SH EBA expired August last year. 18 months of negotiating (if you can call it that) and we are no nearer a sign-off on that. Engineers was about the same time.
Why the rush for LH?
Back to only operating Tequila Sunrise flights.....
I don’t understand your blocks so using 4 weeks.
44 hours return over 5 days?
44 x 2 = 88 hours for 10 days work.
Repeat 10 times a year = 880 hours per year working how many days? Oh sorry plus sim and recurrent! Actually probably more sim to keep landing currency.
Who honestly would not see that as a sweet roster? As I said I know SQ guys who loved it, and done who hated it!!!
I don’t understand your blocks so using 4 weeks.
44 hours return over 5 days?
44 x 2 = 88 hours for 10 days work.
Repeat 10 times a year = 880 hours per year working how many days? Oh sorry plus sim and recurrent! Actually probably more sim to keep landing currency.
Who honestly would not see that as a sweet roster? As I said I know SQ guys who loved it, and done who hated it!!!
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Morno, agreed, and there has supposedly been extensive fatigue research carried out on the B787 since it’s arrival by a panel that is supposedly bi-partisan (AIPA and QF).
The trouble is, this research (and prior studies) never seems to lead anywhere sensible, because it usually provides evidence that the Company (and indeed the regulator) don’t want to hear. QF’s current FRMS consists solely of a photocopy of the regs and another photocopy of the EBA with the title FRMS pasted above it!
So given the toothless nature of any studies so far (and the laughable 3 proposed test flights), giving up existing industrial protections in the hope of future scientifically-based FRMS protections would be ill-advised.
One thing they did give up for the B787 was penalty rates for ULR ops. This I actually agree with - fatigue should not be a financial consideration. It should be about health and safety (both short and long term). Financially compensating unhealthy work practices (“danger money”) should have no place in this industry.
However, I believe the current argument about night credits relates to 3-pilot ops (read Asia) for the B787 - presumably because the B787 will be slated to gradually replace outgoing A330s on these flights. The A330 has night credits, and if the Company gets their way, the B787 pilots will be required to fly more hours per roster than the A330 pilots currently do.
The pilots played ball last EBA, and gave the Company an incredibly productive deal for the B787, which Alan himself crowed about to the media. Now it appears the Company wants more, using the old trick that if the pilots don’t agree, they won’t buy the aircraft. Will the pilots call their bluff? I don’t know, but that is what Alan’s current media campaign is all about. It isn’t about scientific fatigue management.
The trouble is, this research (and prior studies) never seems to lead anywhere sensible, because it usually provides evidence that the Company (and indeed the regulator) don’t want to hear. QF’s current FRMS consists solely of a photocopy of the regs and another photocopy of the EBA with the title FRMS pasted above it!
So given the toothless nature of any studies so far (and the laughable 3 proposed test flights), giving up existing industrial protections in the hope of future scientifically-based FRMS protections would be ill-advised.
One thing they did give up for the B787 was penalty rates for ULR ops. This I actually agree with - fatigue should not be a financial consideration. It should be about health and safety (both short and long term). Financially compensating unhealthy work practices (“danger money”) should have no place in this industry.
However, I believe the current argument about night credits relates to 3-pilot ops (read Asia) for the B787 - presumably because the B787 will be slated to gradually replace outgoing A330s on these flights. The A330 has night credits, and if the Company gets their way, the B787 pilots will be required to fly more hours per roster than the A330 pilots currently do.
The pilots played ball last EBA, and gave the Company an incredibly productive deal for the B787, which Alan himself crowed about to the media. Now it appears the Company wants more, using the old trick that if the pilots don’t agree, they won’t buy the aircraft. Will the pilots call their bluff? I don’t know, but that is what Alan’s current media campaign is all about. It isn’t about scientific fatigue management.
Derfred - that is one of the most eloquent posts I have read on PPrune for a while - very well put. I particularly like this line:
Financially compensating unhealthy work practices (“danger money”) should have no place in this industry.
I think (and hope) this time AIPA and the pilot body won’t be so easily tricked. Sentiments on the flight deck are pretty much “they can shove it”. Enough has been given for the 787 conditions.
If the business case doesn’t stack up - don’t do it.
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T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's " ".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's " ".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
My guess is they've committed to either more 78's or the Sunrise frames and they know any of this leverage will be lost. So let's create a sense of urgency to get what we want. Those pesky pilots will fall for it......
olgeta samting post #254,
T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
It is just that there is a lot of scaremongering on this thread and many unsupported assertions.
There have several been scientific projects on longhaul flying and it effects as there have been on the effects on people who work shift work.
Supposedly there is a research project that shows that pilots in BA don’t live as long as the average population. I haven’t seen it but would like to see an apples and apples comparison.
Im not trying to assert that routine extended wakefulness is safe or unsafe.
My career is in longhaul flying and I’m calling bulls’it on a lot of the assertions on this thread regarding how all the pilots flying the project sunrise are going to die earlier than they otherwise would and on how inherently unsafe it is going to be and what a bunch of bars**rds the QF management are for wanting to get rid of night credits.
If QF hypothethetically offered a 40% pay rise for flying project sunrise, is every pilot still going to die prematurely?
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T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".
Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep
My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.
JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
It is not an industrial discussion.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...record-461346/
The Global 7500 and the Gulfstream 600 are now pushing the longest ever flights.
Not airline news but it’s happening in the corporate world, what will be interesting will be to see legal crew compliments on 135 ops.
The Global 7500 and the Gulfstream 600 are now pushing the longest ever flights.
Not airline news but it’s happening in the corporate world, what will be interesting will be to see legal crew compliments on 135 ops.
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In that case Jamie, listen to all three podcasts that I specifically linked to and decide for yourself and get back to us. There have only been two books I've been able to finish because they were too distressing, one was The Gulag Archipelago about the Soviet Prison camp system by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the other was Matthew Walker's book,
.
The evidence is overwhelming of the chronic effects of sleep deprivation. You will die of sleep deprivation long before you die of starvation. Without sleep you will be dead within weeks. Certain disease that result in chronic inability to sleep result in death within 18 months
Fatal Insomnia
The Guinness book of records no accepts sleep deprivation record attempts to heath concerns.
In answer to your question about a 40% payrise to do it 4 man crew, moot point, that has not been put on the table. Just the opposite, I've heard reports of the initial offer being between -30% and -10% (yes, they are offering minus) to have the privilege of doing this flying. No thank you very much.
If, as you say you have had a career of longhaul, I challenge you to finish the Walker book, Why We Sleep and report back to us how it is all scare mongering.
The evidence is overwhelming of the chronic effects of sleep deprivation. You will die of sleep deprivation long before you die of starvation. Without sleep you will be dead within weeks. Certain disease that result in chronic inability to sleep result in death within 18 months
Fatal Insomnia
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Fatal insomnia has no known cure and involves progressively worsening insomnia, which leads to hallucinations, delirium, confusional states like that of dementia, and eventually death.[6] The average survival time from onset of symptoms is 18 months.[6] The first recorded case was an Italian man, who died in Venice in 1765.[7]
In answer to your question about a 40% payrise to do it 4 man crew, moot point, that has not been put on the table. Just the opposite, I've heard reports of the initial offer being between -30% and -10% (yes, they are offering minus) to have the privilege of doing this flying. No thank you very much.
If, as you say you have had a career of longhaul, I challenge you to finish the Walker book, Why We Sleep and report back to us how it is all scare mongering.
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In that case Jamie, listen to all three podcasts that I specifically linked to and decide for yourself and get back to us. There have only been two books I've been able to finish because they were too distressing, one was The Gulag Archipelago about the Soviet Prison camp system by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the other was Matthew Walker's book, Why We Sleep.
The evidence is overwhelming of the chronic effects of sleep deprivation. You will die of sleep deprivation long before you die of starvation. Without sleep you will be dead within weeks. Certain disease that result in chronic inability to sleep result in death within 18 months
Fatal Insomnia
The Guinness book of records no accepts sleep deprivation record attempts to heath concerns.
In answer to your question about a 40% payrise to do it 4 man crew, moot point, that has not been put on the table. Just the opposite, I've heard reports of the initial offer being between -30% and -10% (yes, they are offering minus) to have the privilege of doing this flying. No thank you very much.
If, as you say you have had a career of longhaul, I challenge you to finish the Walker book, Why We Sleep and report back to us how it is all scare mongering.
The evidence is overwhelming of the chronic effects of sleep deprivation. You will die of sleep deprivation long before you die of starvation. Without sleep you will be dead within weeks. Certain disease that result in chronic inability to sleep result in death within 18 months
Fatal Insomnia
The Guinness book of records no accepts sleep deprivation record attempts to heath concerns.
In answer to your question about a 40% payrise to do it 4 man crew, moot point, that has not been put on the table. Just the opposite, I've heard reports of the initial offer being between -30% and -10% (yes, they are offering minus) to have the privilege of doing this flying. No thank you very much.
If, as you say you have had a career of longhaul, I challenge you to finish the Walker book, Why We Sleep and report back to us how it is all scare mongering.