Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Project Sunrise

Old 9th Oct 2019, 04:14
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe it's the incessant use of the term "skygods" when you are referencing the pilots of an airline with over 2500 different personalities, that shows you're intentions in this forum are not as noble as you protest they are.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 04:43
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
GoingBoeing, incorrect
Morno, please explain what was incorrect with my post?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 04:57
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
Maybe it's the incessant use of the term "skygods" when you are referencing the pilots of an airline with over 2500 different personalities, that shows you're intentions in this forum are not as noble as you protest they are.
Can you show me where I’ve used that term in this thread or indeed at all?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 05:14
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Going Boeing View Post


Morno, please explain what was incorrect with my post?
I don’t work for JQ or even any airline in Australia. So nothing that AIPA does affects me in any way.

I’ll give the boys and girls at QF credit for a few things. You’re all very good at what you do even if some of it is maybe a little anal. The rest of the world will agree with me on that, because I hear it from other pilots from all over the world.

But here’s where you fall down. You’re all so stuck in the past that any hint of progress into the future, there’s backlash and condemnation and instant concerns more about your pay, than the airline that you used to be; pioneering and adaptable. You all complain there’s no growth or anything new, but you’re not willing to be the ones who do what you have to do to make these things happen. Don’t look at the problems, see the solutions. Be the first to come up with pioneering ways to combat the health and fatigue issues of long haul flying and accept that maybe you might have to give something up to do it, for the future pilots.

Imagine the conversations from future QF pilots “the past generation of pilots sacrificed some of their pay so that we have long healthy careers”, rather than the alternative, “Ohh there goes Emirates doing those routes that we had an opportunity to do, but the past generation of pilots were more concerned about night credits and their wallets than the health of us”.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 05:19
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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Twas me who said sky gods and I was using it as a reference to the fact that nothing seems to please the QFsters that are on Proooon.

Apologies Morno!

Tequila Sunrise will happen if the aircraft can do it, so make it work for you!
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 05:27
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies morno. It wasn’t you, your name had been used in the post.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 05:29
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chad Gates View Post
Apologies morno. It wasn’t you, your name had been used in the post.
Accepted, thanks
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 08:06
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Morno,

Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.

Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.

This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!

Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.

Cheers
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 08:34
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Morno,

Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.

Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.

This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!

Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.

Cheers
By saying with night credits we can’t get 900 hours a year productivity which is crap.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 08:53
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
Morno,

Night credits are not about increasing pay, they do not.

Night credits reduce the roster hours flown, thus providing health benefits using the accepted science that back-of-the-clock flying has negative health impacts.

This is exactly what you are saying “should happen”!

Qantas has and still is attempting to remove night credits purely on the grounds of “increased productivity”.

Cheers
Understand Derfred, but surely there's more to it than just reducing the flying. What about patterns based upon time zone changes, diet, fitness, brain stimulation, breakdown of task sharing (ie. multiple crews during a duty) over a flight. There's got to be more to the science than simply saying "you did 5hrs night, so that means we work you for 5 hours less this month".

If I were a QF long haul pilot, I would be pushing for more research to be done over an extended period of time, so that you have scientific data to fight your future battles with. It's like my young son saying that he won't do something I ask and answering with "just 'cause". You have some data that says shift work is bad for your health, but you have no data that delves into the world of long haul flying over an extended period of time. Get it, and you might have something to fight with.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 09:36
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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And therein lies the problem.
QF pilots are saying we want more data if we are going to be subject to 22 hour TOD, we want scientific data. The Company says here is 787 pay minus 10%, we don't want pay night credits for THREE pilot ops (Newsflash people:the 787 doesn't get night credits for 4 crew ops), our Scientific Research is 3 flights, if you don't sign the agreement by the New Year then we will invest in Frequent Flyers etc. Why the rush from the Company? They knew the LH EBA was expiring end of June, Project Sunrise has been going in one form or another for 18 months, yet suddenly...
It smells just like Red Q or Jetstar HK, publicity now, details (Regulatory Approval?) later.
Have a good read on how Singapore Airlines approached SIN- New York. A measured approach, that included scientists going to the homes of both flight attendants and pilots the day before the pattern.
As for QF LG pilots not changing, what do you think the last EBA was about? It was the end of Legacy Terms, a 30% productivity gain for the company.
The SH EBA expired August last year. 18 months of negotiating (if you can call it that) and we are no nearer a sign-off on that. Engineers was about the same time.
Why the rush for LH?
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 11:43
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Back to only operating Tequila Sunrise flights.....

I don’t understand your blocks so using 4 weeks.

44 hours return over 5 days?

44 x 2 = 88 hours for 10 days work.

Repeat 10 times a year = 880 hours per year working how many days? Oh sorry plus sim and recurrent! Actually probably more sim to keep landing currency.

Who honestly would not see that as a sweet roster? As I said I know SQ guys who loved it, and done who hated it!!!
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 12:24
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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Morno, agreed, and there has supposedly been extensive fatigue research carried out on the B787 since it’s arrival by a panel that is supposedly bi-partisan (AIPA and QF).

The trouble is, this research (and prior studies) never seems to lead anywhere sensible, because it usually provides evidence that the Company (and indeed the regulator) don’t want to hear. QF’s current FRMS consists solely of a photocopy of the regs and another photocopy of the EBA with the title FRMS pasted above it!

So given the toothless nature of any studies so far (and the laughable 3 proposed test flights), giving up existing industrial protections in the hope of future scientifically-based FRMS protections would be ill-advised.

One thing they did give up for the B787 was penalty rates for ULR ops. This I actually agree with - fatigue should not be a financial consideration. It should be about health and safety (both short and long term). Financially compensating unhealthy work practices (“danger money”) should have no place in this industry.

However, I believe the current argument about night credits relates to 3-pilot ops (read Asia) for the B787 - presumably because the B787 will be slated to gradually replace outgoing A330s on these flights. The A330 has night credits, and if the Company gets their way, the B787 pilots will be required to fly more hours per roster than the A330 pilots currently do.

The pilots played ball last EBA, and gave the Company an incredibly productive deal for the B787, which Alan himself crowed about to the media. Now it appears the Company wants more, using the old trick that if the pilots don’t agree, they won’t buy the aircraft. Will the pilots call their bluff? I don’t know, but that is what Alan’s current media campaign is all about. It isn’t about scientific fatigue management.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 16:55
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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Derfred - that is one of the most eloquent posts I have read on PPRuNe for a while - very well put. I particularly like this line:
Financially compensating unhealthy work practices (“danger money”) should have no place in this industry.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 20:31
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
Derfred - that is one of the most eloquent posts I have read on PPRuNe for a while - very well put.
Agree 100%

I think (and hope) this time AIPA and the pilot body won’t be so easily tricked. Sentiments on the flight deck are pretty much “they can shove it”. Enough has been given for the 787 conditions.

If the business case doesn’t stack up - don’t do it.
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Old 9th Oct 2019, 23:47
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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IR games

Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
.
.
.

Why the rush for LH?
My guess is they've committed to either more 78's or the Sunrise frames and they know any of this leverage will be lost. So let's create a sense of urgency to get what we want. Those pesky pilots will fall for it......
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 00:35
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.

For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "
Why We Sleep Why We Sleep
".

Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep

My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.

JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 02:13
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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My guess is they've committed to either more 78's or the Sunrise frames and they know any of this leverage will be lost. So let's create a sense of urgency to get what we want. Those pesky pilots will fall for it......

olgeta samting post #254,
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 04:55
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher View Post
T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.

For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".

Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep

My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.

JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
I don’t have a position.
It is just that there is a lot of scaremongering on this thread and many unsupported assertions.
There have several been scientific projects on longhaul flying and it effects as there have been on the effects on people who work shift work.
Supposedly there is a research project that shows that pilots in BA don’t live as long as the average population. I haven’t seen it but would like to see an apples and apples comparison.
Im not trying to assert that routine extended wakefulness is safe or unsafe.
My career is in longhaul flying and I’m calling bulls’it on a lot of the assertions on this thread regarding how all the pilots flying the project sunrise are going to die earlier than they otherwise would and on how inherently unsafe it is going to be and what a bunch of bars**rds the QF management are for wanting to get rid of night credits.
If QF hypothethetically offered a 40% pay rise for flying project sunrise, is every pilot still going to die prematurely?
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Old 10th Oct 2019, 05:10
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher View Post
T-VASIS Thank you for enlighten post.

For anyone want to review the current state of sleep research, a great place to start is Matthew Walker's "Why We Sleep".

Walker was interviewed in a 3 part podcast interview by Peter Attia to get the essence of his research, in particular the metabolic and cognitive effects of sleep deprivation
#47 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part I of III: Dangers of poor sleep, Alzheimer’s risk, mental health, memory consolidation, and more
#48 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part II of III: Heart disease, cancer, sexual function, and the causes of sleep disruption (and tips to correct it)
#49 – Matthew Walker, Ph.D., on sleep – Part III of III: The penetrating effects of poor sleep from metabolism to performance to genetics, and the impact of caffeine, alcohol, THC, and CBD on sleep

My take away from the Walker book and the podcasts is that the science of effects of lack of sleep are going in only one direction, that is the more the science emerges, that greater the negative effect detected. As far as I am aware, there is no research that suggests extended wakefulness has any positive or beneficial effects on either short or longterm cognitive performance or health.

JamieMaree, you call bullsit on long term health effects, do you have any research to support your position? I will flip you question the other way, the scientific onus is on you to prove that routine extended wakefulness is safe.
The Workplace health and Safety process places the onus fairly and squarely on an employer.
It is not an industrial discussion.

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