Project Sunrise
Pardon the ignorance as I am certainly no expert on QF LH working conditions - but isn’t the point of Night Credits to drive up total credits for the roster? So if a pilot does a significant amount of night flying, which has the obvious fatigue issues, the night credits would mean that pilot does less flying (more nights at home in their own bed) in the roster given the divisor? So it’s not simply a pay issue, it’s a way of limiting total flying (days at work) in a roster if you spend all of your work time in the dark?
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Colonel_Klink........exactly.
Yes Morno.....it’s the job of a LH pilot to fly long sectors....but....the sectors are getting longer and the science is showing more evidence towards the long term impacts on health. If companies want to fly further and further, then they have to pay compensation. Not attempt to reduce pay. It’s as simple as that. Then the individual pilot can determine if the financial reward for reducing ones life expectancy is worth it.
Yes Morno.....it’s the job of a LH pilot to fly long sectors....but....the sectors are getting longer and the science is showing more evidence towards the long term impacts on health. If companies want to fly further and further, then they have to pay compensation. Not attempt to reduce pay. It’s as simple as that. Then the individual pilot can determine if the financial reward for reducing ones life expectancy is worth it.
Colonel_Klink........exactly.
Yes Morno.....it’s the job of a LH pilot to fly long sectors....but....the sectors are getting longer and the science is showing more evidence towards the long term impacts on health. If companies want to fly further and further, then they have to pay compensation. Not attempt to reduce pay. It’s as simple as that. Then the individual pilot can determine if the financial reward for reducing ones life expectancy is worth it.
Yes Morno.....it’s the job of a LH pilot to fly long sectors....but....the sectors are getting longer and the science is showing more evidence towards the long term impacts on health. If companies want to fly further and further, then they have to pay compensation. Not attempt to reduce pay. It’s as simple as that. Then the individual pilot can determine if the financial reward for reducing ones life expectancy is worth it.
Re long term health what is the evidence?
Pay compensation, absolutely agree.
longhaul pilots fly longhaul sectors QED
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Bullsh**t.
IT and GW certainly had their problems but they were the only ones.
To base your case on that is absolute bullsh* t.
IT and GW certainly had their problems but they were the only ones.
To base your case on that is absolute bullsh* t.
Klink - Again (as above) exactly! The _whole_ point. If you aren't a Qf driver, you've understood far more than everyone who voted the last EBA up! Shame you weren't on the AIPA COM.
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What is your evidence that the QF pilot population is any different to the community.
Divorces maybe, bad investments yes, premature death bullsh*t.
Divorces maybe, bad investments yes, premature death bullsh*t.
Re long term health what is the evidence?
Just one night of no sleep is shown to increase levels of beta-amyloid in the brain which is correlated to Alzheimer’s and other cognitive degeneration. Without the required time and required phases of deep restorative sleep to activate the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain so these harmful waste proteins can be cleared away - your risk factors go way up. So image the implication of shift work and / or broken sleep that pilots suffer in the course of their careers.
And this is the tip of the iceberg - the other factors of poor nutritional outcomes, mental health issues, increased risk of obesity and cardiovascular disease. And it is a normal distribution. There are populations that degenerate faster, and there are populations that degenerate slower (like your 96 year old mate) - because there are many more variables that either contribute to, or mitigate, internally and externally.
The data is there. The reality is that for the majority - you will likely suffer earlier mortality, and associated health consequences. The question is whether this is an acceptable comprise to do what you may love so much. But for me - I’d be doing all I can to get better health outcomes in your enterprise agreement.
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Empirically validated studies and research that infer causality which you can digest yourself. Purchase access to various journals and you can read the published papers. I don’t speak to the QF pilot population - I speak to all the population. I have spent countless hours performing my own meta-analysis on the research and there are many peer-reviewed papers on the implications of circadian disruption and cosmic radiation to name a few. Just going through body scanners is doing you harm. Ionizing radiation is damaging your DNA, and the cumulative effects are problematic. I always refuse the scanner and I once had a poorly informed TSA agent tell me that the dosage is no different to ‘what I experience when flying’. My simple response to him was ‘why double my exposure’.
Just one night of no sleep is shown to increase levels of beta-amyloid in the brain which is correlated to Alzheimer’s and other cognitive degeneration. Without the required time and required phases of deep restorative sleep to activate the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain so these harmful waste proteins can be cleared away - your risk factors go way up. So image the implication of shift work and / or broken sleep that pilots suffer in the course of their careers.
And this is the tip of the iceberg - the other factors of poor nutritional outcomes, mental health issues, increased risk of obesity and cardiovascular disease. And it is a normal distribution. There are populations that degenerate faster, and there are populations that degenerate slower (like your 96 year old mate) - because there are many more variables that either contribute to, or mitigate, internally and externally.
The data is there. The reality is that for the majority - you will likely suffer earlier mortality, and associated health consequences. The question is whether this is an acceptable comprise to do what you may love so much. But for me - I’d be doing all I can to get better health outcomes in your enterprise agreement.
Just one night of no sleep is shown to increase levels of beta-amyloid in the brain which is correlated to Alzheimer’s and other cognitive degeneration. Without the required time and required phases of deep restorative sleep to activate the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain so these harmful waste proteins can be cleared away - your risk factors go way up. So image the implication of shift work and / or broken sleep that pilots suffer in the course of their careers.
And this is the tip of the iceberg - the other factors of poor nutritional outcomes, mental health issues, increased risk of obesity and cardiovascular disease. And it is a normal distribution. There are populations that degenerate faster, and there are populations that degenerate slower (like your 96 year old mate) - because there are many more variables that either contribute to, or mitigate, internally and externally.
The data is there. The reality is that for the majority - you will likely suffer earlier mortality, and associated health consequences. The question is whether this is an acceptable comprise to do what you may love so much. But for me - I’d be doing all I can to get better health outcomes in your enterprise agreement.
Naturally airline management would comfortably release sick leave (long duration) and ailments in order to rebut the the science with their significant sample.
This is the tip of the iceberg, airlines know full well that the work life balance and in particular circadian rhythm disturbance and time zone displacement results in pilots and cabin crew having significantly higher occurrence of certain illnesses.
Three flights are not statistically sufficient as a sample, nor will there be any repeat long term observation of test subjects to ascertain/map health outcomes.
Little Napoleon will bully, when by law he has a duty of care to his employees. He sits on a treasure trove of sickness data, conveniently ignored.
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Empirically validated studies and research that infer causality which you can digest yourself. Purchase access to various journals and you can read the published papers. I don’t speak to the QF pilot population - I speak to all the population. I have spent countless hours performing my own meta-analysis on the research and there are many peer-reviewed papers on the implications of circadian disruption and cosmic radiation to name a few. Just going through body scanners is doing you harm. Ionizing radiation is damaging your DNA, and the cumulative effects are problematic. I always refuse the scanner and I once had a poorly informed TSA agent tell me that the dosage is no different to ‘what I experience when flying’. My simple response to him was ‘why double my exposure’.
Just one night of no sleep is shown to increase levels of beta-amyloid in the brain which is correlated to Alzheimer’s and other cognitive degeneration. Without the required time and required phases of deep restorative sleep to activate the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain so these harmful waste proteins can be cleared away - your risk factors go way up. So image the implication of shift work and / or broken sleep that pilots suffer in the course of their careers.
And this is the tip of the iceberg - the other factors of poor nutritional outcomes, mental health issues, increased risk of obesity and cardiovascular disease. And it is a normal distribution. There are populations that degenerate faster, and there are populations that degenerate slower (like your 96 year old mate) - because there are many more variables that either contribute to, or mitigate, internally and externally.
The data is there. The reality is that for the majority - you will likely suffer earlier mortality, and associated health consequences. The question is whether this is an acceptable comprise to do what you may love so much. But for me - I’d be doing all I can to get better health outcomes in your enterprise agreement.
Just one night of no sleep is shown to increase levels of beta-amyloid in the brain which is correlated to Alzheimer’s and other cognitive degeneration. Without the required time and required phases of deep restorative sleep to activate the flow of cerebrospinal fluid in the brain so these harmful waste proteins can be cleared away - your risk factors go way up. So image the implication of shift work and / or broken sleep that pilots suffer in the course of their careers.
And this is the tip of the iceberg - the other factors of poor nutritional outcomes, mental health issues, increased risk of obesity and cardiovascular disease. And it is a normal distribution. There are populations that degenerate faster, and there are populations that degenerate slower (like your 96 year old mate) - because there are many more variables that either contribute to, or mitigate, internally and externally.
The data is there. The reality is that for the majority - you will likely suffer earlier mortality, and associated health consequences. The question is whether this is an acceptable comprise to do what you may love so much. But for me - I’d be doing all I can to get better health outcomes in your enterprise agreement.
(It would appear your precautions are working out well so far! 
)
So says someone whose experience of long haul flying is whether they feel like eggs or salmon when they are woken at TOD. Next time you hear ‘We are about 30 minutes from XXX where the temperature is XX. We hope you got some rest during the night...’, remember that the person saying that quite likely hasn’t slept properly in at least 36 hours and could most probably throw up at a moments notice through fatigue. And - will be doing the exact same thing at the opposite end of the clock in about another 36 hours time. After dealing with various domestic and training issues in between.
short flights long nights
All I know is I did 8 years long haul with EK. And at the end I was completely burnt out. I stopped flying because I realised that I was in my early 50s and trying to keep it up was getting simply impossible. It took me 6 months after I stopped flying to realise just how tired I had been.. that I lived in a world of constant fatigue that I had come to accept as ‘ normal’. I know I feel so much better not flying now. ( 35 years and 22000 hours when I stopped.). Long haul flying.. when the limits are used as targets, IMHO will take years off your life.
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Morno,
Until you’ve done some LH flying yourself, it’s probably best you stay out of the discussion about fatigue/night credits/EBAs. I know you like to poke the bear when it comes to QF Pilots (as we’ve all seen in the past), but you’re simply uninformed in this debate.
Most of us in QF have done SH and LH at some stage in our career and they’re very different beasts, both with their own unique fatigue issues. It’s like comparing apples and oranges though.
TL
Until you’ve done some LH flying yourself, it’s probably best you stay out of the discussion about fatigue/night credits/EBAs. I know you like to poke the bear when it comes to QF Pilots (as we’ve all seen in the past), but you’re simply uninformed in this debate.
Most of us in QF have done SH and LH at some stage in our career and they’re very different beasts, both with their own unique fatigue issues. It’s like comparing apples and oranges though.
TL
Last edited by Transition Layer; 9th Oct 2019 at 04:35.
Morno,
You seem to not understand the art of Industrial Negotiation. The conditions that have been achieved in QF has been a long and laborious process over many EBA's. These negotiations have involved give and take from both sides. It makes no sense to knock the QF conditions such as night credits, instead you should be using them as a benchmark to try and improve the conditions that you work under with your employer (who I understand is JQ). I know that AIPA (who represents some JQ pilots) is striving to close the gap between QF & JQ conditions which is obviously in the interests of JQ pilots but also reduces the ability of this very hostile management to use divide and conquer tactics.
Your award is only as good as what you negotiate.
You seem to not understand the art of Industrial Negotiation. The conditions that have been achieved in QF has been a long and laborious process over many EBA's. These negotiations have involved give and take from both sides. It makes no sense to knock the QF conditions such as night credits, instead you should be using them as a benchmark to try and improve the conditions that you work under with your employer (who I understand is JQ). I know that AIPA (who represents some JQ pilots) is striving to close the gap between QF & JQ conditions which is obviously in the interests of JQ pilots but also reduces the ability of this very hostile management to use divide and conquer tactics.
Your award is only as good as what you negotiate.
Last edited by Going Boeing; 9th Oct 2019 at 01:52.
Morno,
Until you’ve done some LH flying yourself, it’s probably best you stay out of the discussion about fatigue/night credits/EBAs. I know you like to poke the bear when it comes to QF Pilots (as we’ve all seen in the past), but you’re simply uninformed in this debate.
Most of us in QF have done SH and LH at some stage in our career and they’re very different beasts, both with their own unique fatigue issues. Apples and oranges though.
TL
Until you’ve done some LH flying yourself, it’s probably best you stay out of the discussion about fatigue/night credits/EBAs. I know you like to poke the bear when it comes to QF Pilots (as we’ve all seen in the past), but you’re simply uninformed in this debate.
Most of us in QF have done SH and LH at some stage in our career and they’re very different beasts, both with their own unique fatigue issues. Apples and oranges though.
TL
I never said I was an expert on fatigue issues for long haul flying. What I’m trying to say is if the fatigue issue and ongoing effects are such a problem, why are you not pushing for things that address those issues? In my opinion you are all more than suitably remunerated for it, so there’s room to give up some of that for things that increase your lifespan. Or is money the only factor and have you lost touch with the common person?
GoingBoeing, incorrect
KZ, no they’re not. They’re asking genuine questions. How has it got to the point whereby long haul flying is apparently so detrimental to your health, yet I see very little science in improving it but lots and lots of money in pockets instead. If it were me, I’d be pushing for improvements in the science side of it over an increase in cash!
Maybe it's the incessant use of the term "skygods" when you are referencing the pilots of an airline with over 2500 different personalities, that shows you're intentions in this forum are not as noble as you protest they are.
Can you show me where I’ve used that term in this thread or indeed at all?