Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Project Sunrise

Old 10th Sep 2019, 05:17
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
...in addition to my question above - how would QF see this working - with apologies for very simplistic scenario below?
Captain and FO do take off, climb out and part of cruise - go to sleep.
SOs take over - monitor the aircraft for the middle of the flight.
Captain, FO wake up, do descent and landing?
QF requires either the Captain or FO to be on watch. The FO (in long haul at least) has a command endorsement on type, the SO doesnít.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 05:58
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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No such thing as an SIC rating these days
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 06:20
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotchute View Post
No such thing as an SIC rating these days
Its called Cruise relief.

So itíll be on your licence as A330(CR) or A380(CR) etc etc
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 07:45
  #84 (permalink)  
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Surely the incremental cost of having an extra FO on the jet wouldn't be that much?
And they'd have enough FOs to do so?
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 08:44
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Little Tino has just lit a fuse
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:07
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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So now it’s out there officially from Tino, shiny jet syndrome, fly 21 hours with a 4 man crew for 787 money and we will give you some more promotions. Well Tino from where I sit stick it where the sun don’t shine.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:46
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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No project sunrise is the word on the street but obviously Tino has taken it upon himself to pi## off the Pilot group to cause a conflict so he has a group to blame when the fail of the project is released in December.

Project Surprise! (not).
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:46
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
So now it’s out there officially from Tino, shiny jet syndrome, fly 21 hours with a 4 man crew for 787 money and we will give you some more promotions. Well Tino from where I sit stick it where the sun don’t shine.
Thank you to the Qantas pilots sharing the dribble from Little Tino.
His track record at Ansett with respect to aircraft introduction is less than shiny.
Funny that his chaperone at Qantas had similar "experience" at Ansett.
Not to be deterred they are at it again..

Perhaps draw a line under it Tino, see how the "business case" stacks up at Jetstar.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:46
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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That email was complete amateur hour.....I found it hilarious
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:48
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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The fact is there will be no project sunrise you only have to look at the 2 currently available aircraft to see its financially unviable, even if the pilots paid them to crew it......idiots...
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:52
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack View Post
That email was complete amateur hour.....I found it hilarious
It was rather rank.

With a surname like that, the implied threat conjures up images of a sloppily dressed Mafia type leveraging "protection" money out of small business in the NY boroughs.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 17:47
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Global Aviator;10566070]


Seriously itís your job and I donít mean any offence. Sometimes itís not easy but 4 crew (or more) operations is designed to mitigate this regardless of duty time.

I would be more concerned with all the back of the clock red eye, earlies to lates to earlies, yadda yadda yadda contstantly going on around the world with 2 crew!

As Iíve said before itís not really ground breaking when you compare it to the ole SQ direct Newark or the new service.

Sure itís (was) my job, but after 25 years of long haul flights, I can witness that quite often we ended up the flight with 4 pilots with the same level of fatigue, no matter who rested first or second, which wasnít nice in case of any negative occurrence in the last part of the flight, letís be honest.
I know that SQ makes the SIN-EWR since years, but what does it mean in terms of safety margins? So far it was safe, but that kind of fatigue you donít get rid of with just a good (?) sleep, itís the cumulative effect of it which has not been investigated in depth. We are exploring still an uncharted territory where there are not ďtruthsĒ yet, just opinions...as itís mine, of course. Just as a Ēcrazy contributionĒ, why not, for example, have the pilots going (on random basis) a psychometric test, or better, half an hour in a sim (with a couple of abnormal situations) after one of such extra-long flights, to test the readiness and alertness of the crews? Am I too paranoic?
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 21:23
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Capricorn - Yep I do agree with you, I was just pointing out that I believe there are operations out there that are just as bad if not worse. Itís the way the game has gone.

I would prefer 4 pilots and the end of a ULH sector than 2 pilots operating max duty red eyes. I know we are talking about project banananananna ramamama, but just pointing out reality.

Then there is the next gen business jets the Globals and Gulfs whose ranges are now really being stretched, talk about crew rest.

Anyway as I said was not having a go, itís reality if they make an aircraft that can do it, it will be crewed.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 22:47
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=capricorn23;10566652]
Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post


Seriously itís your job and I donít mean any offence. Sometimes itís not easy but 4 crew (or more) operations is designed to mitigate this regardless of duty time.

I would be more concerned with all the back of the clock red eye, earlies to lates to earlies, yadda yadda yadda contstantly going on around the world with 2 crew!

As Iíve said before itís not really ground breaking when you compare it to the ole SQ direct Newark or the new service.

Sure itís (was) my job, but after 25 years of long haul flights, I can witness that quite often we ended up the flight with 4 pilots with the same level of fatigue, no matter who rested first or second, which wasnít nice in case of any negative occurrence in the last part of the flight, letís be honest.
I know that SQ makes the SIN-EWR since years, but what does it mean in terms of safety margins? So far it was safe, but that kind of fatigue you donít get rid of with just a good (?) sleep, itís the cumulative effect of it which has not been investigated in depth. We are exploring still an uncharted territory where there are not ďtruthsĒ yet, just opinions...as itís mine, of course. Just as a Ēcrazy contributionĒ, why not, for example, have the pilots going (on random basis) a psychometric test, or better, half an hour in a sim (with a couple of abnormal situations) after one of such extra-long flights, to test the readiness and alertness of the crews? Am I too paranoic?
That is a great idea, I reckon the regulators, bean counters and management types will NEVER accept such a test, because it will PROVE that the levels of fatigue we operate at now are dangerous. No, the industry is adopting the head in the sand approach to this ticking time bomb. My opinions are based on 30 years of experience. Of course a newly minted management degree outweighs this.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 23:33
  #95 (permalink)  
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On a current tour of duty up to London, what sort of a break do you get when you arrive?
Do you get a night in the crew hotel, then back on the jet the next day to fly back down to SYD?
Then how long do you have off before doing it again (and before anyone gets shirty - I'm just asking to find out and get a sense of the fatigue issue).
Hypothetically, what would people here see as a reasonable turnaround on a non-stop tour of duty SYD-LHR-SYD.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 23:44
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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It’s about 56 hours rest in London and if operating out of Eastern bases you have 48 hours rest in Perth before that sector and 48 hours after before operating back to the east. I’m not sure how long break is for Perth based crew between trips. However you also generally get 8 hours worth or breaks on the flight and I always arrive feeling fairly fresh.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 00:53
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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I reckon you couldn’t get enough money on it that they get 10/11 hour flight deck duty time here and within 5 years they will be back saying that applies to all sectors and you can have 1 SO on Aus/Lax and all Aus to Asia sectors.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 00:59
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Reduction in S/O positions!

Originally Posted by dragon man View Post
I reckon you couldnít get enough money on it that they get 10/11 hour flight deck duty time here and within 5 years they will be back saying that applies to all sectors and you can have 1 SO on Aus/Lax and all Aus to Asia sectors.
Considering our colleagues over at Jetstar operate with two-crew where we operate with three crew Iíd say you onto something Dragon Man! That will be in the following E.A.s etc of course!
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:19
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Colonial View Post
Considering our colleagues over at Jetstar operate with two-crew where we operate with three crew Iíd say you onto something Dragon Man! That will be in the following E.A.s etc of course!
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 02:00
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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This was the idea of a schedule to run 5 crew 1 Cpt 2 FOs and 2 SOs. Itís one way it can be done and keep some semblance of the current flight deck duty times limits. The compliment also allows proper rest to continue in the event of a diversion. Did this a while ago and guessed the flight time but if itís an hour shorter than below it still works fine.

Using 5 pilots on this leg is still less than the 7 they currently use now to get the QF1 from Syd to Lhr (3 Syd-Sin and 4 Sin-Lhr).

Sorry cant display the link to the post as I havenít done 10 posts yet. So instead I need to waste more space and put it here. Apologies to anyone who has already read it. Not my policy, perhaps a moderator can delete whatís below and insert the link to post 57 on the So you need a new fleet Leigh thread:

1 Cpt 2 F/Os and 2 S/Os which would be a similar cost and in my opinion safer as much less time will be spent on the deck vs 4 pilot and it gives the ability to plan long breaks and more beneficial sleep periods much better.

Re dealing with the regulator and the pilots association. At the moment the longest planned flight deck time allowed is 8.5 hours in Qf Long Haul. Running Sunrise 4 pilot smashes that out of the park. The below keeps it reasonably close whilst still being reasonably cost effective especially vs 2 Cpts 2 F/Os.

There must always be at least one pilot with a command endorsement on the flight deck at any one time. At the moment a Cpt and F/O (Long Haul) in Qantas hold that endorsement. S/O does not. As such always need a Cpt or F/O on the flight deck.

Also one of the most challenging things about this flight will be the fatigue in the second half and maintaining concentration. The below roster would ensure that towards the end of the flight there is always one pilot who has been on the flight deck for a period longer than the other so someone is always in the ďloopĒ rather than just having the crew both swap at the same time. Also towards the end of the flight the rest/change over periods are shorter so less risk of errors due to the fatigue of long stints at the controls involving controlled rest etc. Doing it this way ensures there is a fresh crew member is at the controls on average every 2.8 hours (with longer breaks at the start and shorter toward the end).

The last comment that I would make is for this to work everyone would need to know their role beforehand and turn up for work accordingly. More about that later.

The following assumes:

22hr flight time. 30 min taxi.
1 hr report. 0.5 hr stand down for 24 hr tour of duty. It can be pretty easily adjusted if required depending on the flight time. But in this example:

TOD 24 hrs

Off blocks 22.5hrs

Captain (obviously there for takeoff and landing) = C1
Take Off and Landing First Officer = F1
Cruise First Officer = F2
Second Officers = S1 & S2

Roster as follows:

C1 & F1
Taxi (20mins) and first 2:40hrs for total 3hrs in seat. (All times below are time in flight deck seat). Time for coffee to wear off!

C1 or F1 (most tired goes off) & S1
4hrs

F2 & S1
3.5hrs

F2 & S2
3.5hrs

C1 or F1 who went on break first & S2
3.5hrs

C1 or F1 who went on break first & S1
0.5hrs

F2 & S1
1hr

F2 & S2
1-1.5hrs (F2) 1.5hrs (S2)

C1 & F1 One comes back before the other so both not swapping together at their discretion.
2-2.5hrs (C1) 2-2.5hrs (F1) including 10 minute taxi.

Total time in seat:
C1 9-9.5hrs
F1 9-9.5hrs
F2 9-9.5hrs
S1 9hrs
S2 8.5hrs

Longest break in order to get a normal sleep period:
C1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F1: 11hrs or 13hrs depending on 1st or 2nd break taken.
F2: 7 hours at start. 4 hours in middle. More broken as not doing takeoff or landing. Doesnít drink coffee before flight and knows to turn up to work ready to sleep.
S1: 7 hrs.
S2: 10.5 hrs. Also doesnít drink coffee before the flight and know to turn up to work ready to sleep.

Total time off each approx at least 13 hrs.

For this to work the roles would need to be designated before the flight with a schedule written similar to what other ULR operators do. The Captain and FO should figure out before the flight who wants to go off first so they know how tired to be at the beginning of the duty. That way everyone knows how to plan their rest.

This is the only way I can see which Sunrise can be crewed. 4 pilot just has everyone in the seat too long with too many broken breaks especially with 1 Cpt 1 F/O and 2 S/Os. 5 crew is complicated but not impossible. Easy spreadsheet app for the iPad and could be adapted slightly on the day depending on flight and departure times. It ensures that all the crew have had someone else on duty for a period when they get on duty so someone is always in the loop and the take off and landing pilots both have a big stretch off to get a proper sleep like in a normal 24 hour period. Hopefully this would satisfy the regulator and the AIPA. Also in the event of a medical diversion there is better opportunities to extend and get still have adequate rest.

Lastly yes this would add slightly more weight needing 3 crew rest areas but as the holds will not have much more than pax bags in them there will be plenty of space considering the size of the jet so perhaps creative use of this space for a crew rest area which doesnít add much more weight than a 2 crew rest could be devised.


Last edited by Seaview2; 12th Sep 2019 at 04:34.
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