Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Former QF Pilots sue QF Super

Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:33
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brisbane
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Moral of the story? Look very closely at the detail of that very costly Loss of Licence/Income policy you pay a substantial premium for each year.
You may well be paying a premium for something that you have little hope of making a successful claim on, or at best will have your payout substantially reduced by other policies provided from other sources.
As mentioned above, professional, independent advice is worth every dollar in this field.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:35
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
Looks like the standard scenario of Insurance Companies doing whatever they can do to drive you into the ground and reduce their liability.
They are absolute crooks!
Disclaimer that I'm not in Oz, but my experience has been just the opposite - my insurance claims have all been handled fairly and graciously. Even to the extent of coverage that was technically beyond the requirements of the 'fine print'.
Maybe you just need to look beyond price when selecting your insurance?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe you just need to look beyond price when selecting your insurance?
Maybe I need to move to Washington State!
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:52
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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C441: I’ve never read the detail in a single insurance policy I’ve taken out, but am broad brush abreast of the mortgage documents I sign and consider myself fairly sophisticated in such things. In the last 5 years I have been ripped off (NO other word for it) by ANZ in Oz and one private contract overseas to the tune of AUD$400k in straight out fees - and that’s nothing compared to the losses and tax ANZ forced me to pay by liquidating rolled gold assets to satisfy their ‘unadvertised’ but seriously enforceable debt service ratios. With expensive lawyers we got close to what they were up to but the ‘intent’ of the documents we signed escaped us.

If ‘they’ set out to get you, they can and will.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 06:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Maybe you just need to look beyond price when selecting your insurance?
Problem is, there is no choice in "purchasing" this insurance product! What is the premium? Not disclosed if far as I can see.
Standard Insurance Cover / Standard Insurance Benefit As a member of Divisions 1, 2 or 3, you are automatically covered 24 hours a day, seven days a week for death, disablement and Terminal Illness until your Superannuation Date. This automatic cover is known as Standard Insurance Cover. Standard Insurance Cover is part of a package of benefits for members, so you are not able to decline, change or cancel the cover.
page 23 https://www.qantassuper.com.au/wp-co...supplement.pdf

But page 13 states
Minimum investment amount. The minimum investment amount required to invest in the Term Deposit option is $5,000 (each time you wish to invest in this option). You’ll also need to leave a minimum of $5,000 in your MIC option. This is required for any regular deductions from your account e.g. for fees and insurance premiums
Intriguing...

For anyone wanting to poke around the historical documents, copies are conveniently available back to 2003: ARCHIVED Qantas Superannuation pages, might be of some help or interest.

Last edited by CurtainTwitcher; 3rd Sep 2018 at 07:14.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 10:08
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Duck,

from what I have read this is a little more involved than just simply just having a LOL policy.

Perhaps don't worry too much, but do definitely read the fine print... ask questions, and require answers in writing.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 10:14
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Duck Pilot;10240090]
I really feel for these 2 pilots as this could happen to anyone of us.

I’m on the other side of 40 and have LOL, a young family and all the the financial stresses and I always believed that my LOL will get me and my family out of a bind should my health pack up. I’m having second thoughts now and I will certainly be getting into the fine print.

I have absolutely no doubt that these 2 pilots would have not went to the media if they didn’t believe they were treated unfairly.[QUOTE]


Duck,
This is not about whether they have been paid their LOL.
In Qf mainline by virtue of their employment contract, a pilot gets automatic LOL coverage without medical exclusions, currently worth in excess of $1,000,000 at no cost to the pilot.Who else gets that coverage? Also, if the Qf mainline pilot hasn’t opted out of Qf super altogether they get coverage for total and permanent disability like any other Qf employee and member ( no premium paid). A number of Qf pilots also pay an extra policy for income protection or perhaps even LOL coverage at the own expense and option.
Within the Qf mainline administration the result is that if a mainline pilot loses their licence medically and are paid the LOL capital benefit, when the trustee( board) is considering eligibility for total and permanent disability payment, if the LOL capital benefit is paid, the pilot doesn’t get an extra equivalent amount. If in some cases the super benefit exceeds the LOL amount( highly unlikely) the difference maybe paid.
i think this is the question being tested here.
The question may well be that the optional extra coverage is being tested but I don’t think so on the information available. I am convinced that if this was the case AIPA would be pursuing the case , not ambulance chasers.
The Qfsuper CEO denies the pilots paid a premium for their disputed coverage.









Last edited by wombat watcher; 3rd Sep 2018 at 10:36.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 10:50
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
Fact is that the fine print HOOKs of these bloody insurance policies that we are paying absorbed premiums for must be articulated in clear plan English with common examples.

If Qantas underwrite this insurance, shame on them. I wish there was an alternative airline to use......

If airlines started treating staff with respect financially, opposed to appeasing their stakeholders, the airlines would be in a lot better shape, not that there is currently s PILOT SHORTAGE!


they don’t underwrite. They self insure. They carry the risk. Why don’t you pause on passing comment on something you obviously dont understand.


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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 10:53
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The LOL insurers refused to continue with the Qf LOL because there were too many claims paid out. Qf had no option but to self insure.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 11:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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They aren’t talking about Loss of Licence LOL, they are talking about Loss of Income Protection and TPD.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 11:17
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
They aren’t talking about Loss of Licence LOL, they are talking about Loss of Income Protection and TPD.
If that is the case their case is probably open and shut but why are they suing Qfsuper?
Qfsuper doesn’t provide Loss of Income protection.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 11:34
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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From the Qantas Super Website:

Benefits of insurance through your super.

Types of Cover:

Income protection: can provide you with a monthly income if you become ill or injured


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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 11:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
Ok, I am obviously confused!

Whatever, Iím obviously stupid and have no idea, I will now go and cry in my cave!!!!

No wonder mental health issues effect pilots.......................

So much for looking after fellow PILOTS who certainly require some help and encouragement!

duck, they are alleging that they paid for a loss of income policy for which they are being denied a claim.
until the details come out that may or may not be true.
it is not as simple as buying an insurance policy for your house and being denied a claim on some sort of technicality.
if someone has a mental health issue about that, maybe they shouldnít be flying an aircraft.
do you think that someone who has free travel insurance on one Amex card and free travel insurance on a separate Amex card and claims for one travel issue should be paid twice? Even if he is a fellow pilot or even a mate?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 11:45
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
From the Qantas Super Website:

Benefits of insurance through your super.

Types of Cover:

Income protection: can provide you with a monthly income if you become ill or injured


Did they actually pay an extra premium?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 12:48
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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What ever the outcome, I want to thank these two guys for raising awareness of such an important issue. I will certainly be closely reviewing my qantas super policy and my decision to remain with them.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 14:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wombat watcher View Post
If that is the case their case is probably open and shut but why are they suing Qfsuper?
Qfsuper doesnít provide Loss of Income protection.
Wombat Watcher,

After 40 odd posts on this thread, the only poster who has confused the conversation by refering to mainline EBA LOL benefits is you... more than once now.

It appears that you confused about the difference between that and the various private ďLoss of Income InsuranceĒ policies that many pilots take out, and spend many thousands of dollars per year doing so.

I am not going to accuse you of being an angel or sciolist at this time. I will leave that for the readers to decide. I will assume for now that you are confused.

If I may re-direct you to the news article under discussion, there is no dispute between EBA LOL benefits and QF Super benefits.

The dispute is between private Loss of Income Insurance benefits and QF Super benefits.

The concern, in particular, by my interpretation, is that if I already have a QF Super benefit of for example $1M, why would I be paying an additional for example $5K per annum for private Loss of Income Insurance, if at the end of the day all it is doing is offsetting the insurance I already had with QF Super.

My interpretation is that it is not about what insurance premiums I may or not have paid (directly or indirectly) to QF Super, it is about the fact that QF Super clearly told me I was insured for a TPD benefit of say $1M (the underwriting being their problem and the premiums obviously deducted from the very large fees taken annualy from my QF Super account), but from the fact that they did not disclose that if I was to pay many extra thousands of dollars per year for ďLoss of Income InsuranceĒ (which may or may not have also qualified for their TPD benefit) then a dollar for dollar ofsett would apply, which if I had known, might have significantly affected my choice of private insurance cover.

Mainline EBA LOL lump sums that may be payable have not, that I have read, remotely come into this equation as offsettable. Why do you keep referring to them when the converstation is obviously about something else?

If you can articulate your superior knowledge on the subject, Iím sure weíd all be grateful.

Regards, Fred

Last edited by Derfred; 3rd Sep 2018 at 14:21.
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 15:13
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Can QANTAS legally offer insurance in Australia. If not can it rely in insurance law and practices to limit promised benefits?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 15:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by harrryw View Post
Can QANTAS legally offer insurance in Australia. If not can it rely in insurance law and practices to limit promised benefits?
I donít understand your question, harry.

As far as I understand it, Qantas owns Qantas Super. Qantas Super is a (private) super fund like any other, that can engage in all the financial bullshit that any other can, including defrauding itís clients so long as it doesnít get caugtht. Itís profits flow to Qantas. Any more questions?
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Old 3rd Sep 2018, 21:55
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post

I donít understand your question, harry.

As far as I understand it, Qantas owns Qantas Super. Qantas Super is a (private) super fund like any other, that can engage in all the financial bullshit that any other can, including defrauding itís clients so long as it doesnít get caugtht. Itís profits flow to Qantas. Any more questions?
Derfred,
What absolute rubbish.. Qfsuper doesnít make profits. It makes returns on investments from which expenses are deducted, and the benefits are passed on to members as returns according to which division they are in. The only benefit Qf gets from the running of Qfsuper is an indirect one, in that if Qfsuper investments perform well, Qf has less money to put in to fund payouts to those members who are in division 3 which is a defined benefits scheme.
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Old 4th Sep 2018, 02:22
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Wombat Watcher, you have responded to Derfred’s most recent post but have seemingly chosen to ignore all the very pertinent points that he laid out in post #41. Do you have a response to it?

As to your repeated assertion that the case must not have merit if AIPA are not running it, that is not correct, AIPA have been providing assistance with the matter for a significant period of time.
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