MEL Tower — Go Slow?
I have been flying pretty well all over the planet for over 3 decades. It is a safe bet that pilots everywhere occasionally fly inaccurate speeds, ETAs etc, particularly after a long night. Other, busier jurisdictions manage to cope with this and remain generally efficient. There have even been noticeable improvements around a lot of Asia over the last few years. Even India.
But Australian ATC, in a relatively benign weather and terrain environment, particularly MEL and SYD, just seems to be on that razor’s edge all the time, and can still be described as anal at best, and excruciating at worst.
Very occasionally, one can experience the more switched-on controller at MEL achieving reasonable and even slick operations on the crossing runways and can think, ‘This one would do OK at Heathrow or JFK’. So maybe it is not just the ‘system’.
But Australian ATC, in a relatively benign weather and terrain environment, particularly MEL and SYD, just seems to be on that razor’s edge all the time, and can still be described as anal at best, and excruciating at worst.
Very occasionally, one can experience the more switched-on controller at MEL achieving reasonable and even slick operations on the crossing runways and can think, ‘This one would do OK at Heathrow or JFK’. So maybe it is not just the ‘system’.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 1st May 2018 at 01:10.
Reads like you don’t have a complete understanding also that TO Perf calculations just might have been predicated on a 90 degree turn onto the RNW.
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It might help if Australia stopped building airspace for 737's and 320's. There are bigger aeroplanes out there! And whilst we can work within the confines it does mean we might need to slow a little and then speed up on a dive staying in the airspace. Or slow down, configure to be "draggy" enough to stay within the airspace. Melbourne is particularly bad.
Also remember a companies SOP's might be different to yours and have speed, config, ROD's restrictions.
Lining up a 300T plus aeroplane from "B" on 16 does take a bit of effort because somehow it wasn't possible to flatten out YMML a little better.
It would help if they used "behind the landing aircraft, line up behind" instead of waiting for it to pass.
But yes Australia did invent aviation. Don't start on the ludicrous LVO's.
Also remember a companies SOP's might be different to yours and have speed, config, ROD's restrictions.
Lining up a 300T plus aeroplane from "B" on 16 does take a bit of effort because somehow it wasn't possible to flatten out YMML a little better.
It would help if they used "behind the landing aircraft, line up behind" instead of waiting for it to pass.
But yes Australia did invent aviation. Don't start on the ludicrous LVO's.
Exit stage left.....regarding the 90 degree turn on line up, can you remind me what the line up allowance is in meters for a 737 on a 30 degree day with the standard 5kt tailwind off runway 27 when the runway is limiting and OPT suggests rated thrust?
Regarding speed, if you hold me at 9000 I’ll slow to 240kts and then when cleared to descend further I’ll speed up to 260kts until I pick up my profile, would you expect that or expect I used speed brake to counter the cr@ppy airspace design.?
Regarding speed, if you hold me at 9000 I’ll slow to 240kts and then when cleared to descend further I’ll speed up to 260kts until I pick up my profile, would you expect that or expect I used speed brake to counter the cr@ppy airspace design.?
More conditional lineups please!
It might help if Australia stopped building airspace for 737's and 320's.
Pretty ironic that criticisms of inefficiency are coming from jet airline pilots. Perhaps we could expand this discussion to include issues on the other side of the ledger that lead to the perception of gaps being missed, or ATC on a go slow.Could it be that inefficiencies in the movement of aircraft at ML may be contributed to by pilots and their actions, such as repeated failure to make feeder fix times or exit hold patterns in timely manner; inability fly STAR speeds; complete ignoring of speed control instructions; inability to follow taxi instructions; unwillingness to readback instructions resulting in repeated calls; answering other aircraft’s callsigns; “was that for us?”; complete non-understanding of the instruction to expedite line-ups, and that it is not an instruction to square turn onto the runway then stop; unwillingness to actually execute an immediate departure after committing to do so; utter non-understanding of the rules of wake turbulence; the list goes on….If you have issues with standards by which ATC are REQUIRED to adhere to, take it up with CASA.If you think you can do a better job, come and have a go. I’ll loan you my headset.
The one I do not understand is where we have the time all programmed and get constantly harassed by ATC saying 'confirm you can meet time X' system shows time Y. And we change nothing and sail past the way point +/- 10 seconds.
The system does not work. Time to get a new system and probably some new rules as it won't be getting any quieter.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 1st May 2018 at 04:54.
And we change nothing and sail past the way point +/- 10 seconds.
Feeder fix times, I can't stand them - ONLY in Australia have I come across them.
Everywhere else in the world, ATC just asks you to fly a speed...
Cuts both ways nev - the reason you get asked is because 90% of the time if the aircraft is looking early it's because they are. You might have nailed your time but what about the guy you're following? Or the one three ahead? What about when the one with max does better than expected? Do you want us to just leave a 3 minute gap behind him or would you rather we speed everyone behind up a bit to fill the gap and save 60 or 90 seconds each?
How many times am I told by an international heavy that they can't possibly lose 5 minutes from 250 miles out when I know they'll lose 4 minutes on profile? Regularly. Or they're early and when asked their speed the response is "280" or "300"? Again, a regular occurrence.
The sequence isn't set in concrete - the flow times are to put you in about the right place, not to space you to the nearest metre down final.
How many times am I told by an international heavy that they can't possibly lose 5 minutes from 250 miles out when I know they'll lose 4 minutes on profile? Regularly. Or they're early and when asked their speed the response is "280" or "300"? Again, a regular occurrence.
The sequence isn't set in concrete - the flow times are to put you in about the right place, not to space you to the nearest metre down final.
The sequence isn't set in concrete - the flow times are to put you in about the right place, not to space you to the nearest metre down final
Personally having flown in Australia and overseas, I would rather the feeder fix time. At least you have some idea where you stand in the sequence then and can plan an efficient descent.
There's plenty of pilots out there who don’t know how to manage their energy very well either. They’re normally the ones who are doing 160kts at 15 miles stuffing up the sequence for everyone else. If they tried that at Hong Kong they’d be taken off the approach!
There's plenty of pilots out there who don’t know how to manage their energy very well either. They’re normally the ones who are doing 160kts at 15 miles stuffing up the sequence for everyone else. If they tried that at Hong Kong they’d be taken off the approach!
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MEL Tower-Go Slow?
Whoa Ex1... Are you serious? I'm guessing you are not just new to this sight but new to the whole game.In 30 years in the business I've never seen it so bad.Holding going from 10 minutes to 45 when "downwind"(????) on Rwy 27 goes above 5 kts. .Arrivals grinding to a halt when cloud base is below Rwy 34 minima but downwind on Rwy 16 is above limits on a "wet"(!!!!) runway.And no GLS. And dont give me the BS about Pilots missing feeder slot times.Do your job. Give a vector. And lineups? Lining up assuming an immediate clearance for takeoff and NOT GETTING IT ,stopping and then continuing will fail you on a line check.And on and on and on......Seriously you guys are clueless.The days are long gone when ATC were aviators.The system is broken.
As most who fly elsewhere on the planet and have done their fare share of domestic in Oz can attest. It’s a joke. Rest of the world manage with speed, vectors etc and seems to do a good job. Here in the States the clearance; “descend to 8000 then 250kts” seems pretty clear and does what the controller intends. Even the “descend via” here works great, with just the min altitude selected and minimum amount of chatter. Flying into Brissie the other day we got a ‘descend via” but with a lot of repetition alt and speed clearances that were printed on the chart.
For the ATCs on this thread I think you may be under the impression that most of the pilots responding here care about anything other than their spot...they don’t give a toss about the big picture. Mr Glass gives one of the most juvilnile responses even for PPRUNE, a big effort. Not everyone is perfect all of the time.
One of the main issues is Melbourne Airport Corp keeps selling tickets to a sold out show at peak times. If the weather isn’t playing the game, expect some standing.
I guess ATC should just fix it with a vector...although I’m yet to get a vector that might fix someone who was late at the fix.
One of my fav sports is banter against ATC..but this stuff is just well...grinding my gears.
One of the main issues is Melbourne Airport Corp keeps selling tickets to a sold out show at peak times. If the weather isn’t playing the game, expect some standing.
I guess ATC should just fix it with a vector...although I’m yet to get a vector that might fix someone who was late at the fix.
One of my fav sports is banter against ATC..but this stuff is just well...grinding my gears.
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Descent speeds are generally a function of the Cost Index which will vary day to day unless the operator stipulates an SOP speed, plus VNAV or Managed descent won't necessarily control the speed to within 5 knots depending on data entered and actual winds. When given an RTA at Top of Drop to lose 10 minutes it is probably getting a little late. Move your flow control out to 300 miles or more and you might find a little more accuracy.
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Well,Oz you might like to re-read your post in the cold light of day.Juvenile?Check your spelling and grammar before you pontificate.The system is buggered.I dont care how much pressure ATC is under.20 years of neglect.Incompetent management and no-nothing politicians.The system has to be called for what it is.I'll be glad to be out of it shortly.Good luck for the rest of your career.Its only going to get worse.
Ahhh yes Melbourne. Even Sydney smashes you guys harder as a better joint, and i hazard a guess a Ballina CTAF full of non talking operators. We always take an extra tonne or so because of the kinder surprise you get with a stupid ARBEY time you get day in day out, when the winds are favorable, yet the ATIS gives you something else.
We get COBT, no probs. Will ablige.
We fly to this crap s-hole and put up with the cancel ARBEY time and max speed to the field and then taxi on the worlds smoothests taxiways we’ve ever had the privilege to be on..... and yep, if you guys can’t figure out how to use runway 09 well, give the game away. This isn’t a CASA issue, this is Airservices. Pass the god damn pop corn...
We get COBT, no probs. Will ablige.
We fly to this crap s-hole and put up with the cancel ARBEY time and max speed to the field and then taxi on the worlds smoothests taxiways we’ve ever had the privilege to be on..... and yep, if you guys can’t figure out how to use runway 09 well, give the game away. This isn’t a CASA issue, this is Airservices. Pass the god damn pop corn...
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Move your flow control out to 300 miles or more and you might find a little more accuracy.
I know I know, the system isn't strategic enough to cope with that level of foresight. Well it needs to change.
But..I have to agree with much of the sentiment here. Without pointing the finger at individual ATCers, the system of controlling in Oz (particularly MEL) is among the ****ey-est in the world.
(Ps. And as an aside...whats with the snarky denials of a roll-thru on 34L in SYD when there is NO ONE on final or at any holding point waiting for take off!)
PG