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One pilot union for all Australian pilots.

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Old 15th Apr 2018, 01:33
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Well said virginexces, however the AFAP's version of achieving one union seems to be more akin to the 'gun to the head' negotiating style not uncommon of airline management, rather than what you're suggesting.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 02:11
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I’m a QF 737 Pilot and have read through this entire thread and offer the following.

Virginexcess expresses what would happen in an idealised word that I’d like to see happen.

LeadSled has provided some detailed well reasoned history.

If the AFAP want me to change completely the Professional Association that (despite some rough patches) has served me very well over the past 20 years then they by their actions and inactions (and the angry Protagonists here) are in fact achieving the opposite.

“You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 02:15
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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There is not the slightest chance of my joining the AFAP.

I guess this comes up about now just to stir up some division approaching EBA time.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 02:22
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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I would consider the biggest barrier to progress is the pilots themselves -----
Virginexcess,
Never was a truer word said.
Particularly that pilot cohort who only know Australian aviation, and who have a determination to remain supremely ignorant of what happens outside Australia.
This goes to all facets, not just industrial matters, a default negativity towards any reform.
I would not bet on this lamentable situation changing any time soon, despite the very occasional bright spot, as it has changed little in my 50+ years of active involvement.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 23:11
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Have any of you naysayers bothered to actually find out what this is all about or are you content to just keep heaping sh%t on everything AFAP?? Lead, Tuner, Is & Beer Baron??
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 23:37
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin 737 and Qantas 737 negotiators in the same room swapping notes and ideas for EBA time wouldn't yield any good results would it? Better off carrying on about 1966 or what ever year it was..

Bizarre.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 23:54
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Very true Don Diego!

I don't have a dog in the fight, no real interest in the outcome, but much of the debate seems focused on the concept of the AFAP "taking over" union responsibility for all pilots of Australian registered aircraft.

Surely the concept could only be a merger of both unions, if the majority of members of each of the two unions individually agreed?
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 01:04
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Merger is what I heard. Take over sounds dramatic and helps naysayers.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 01:05
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just keep heaping sh%t on everything AFAP?
Might it be that the brand name "AFAP" comes with too much history and baggage attached? Just asking.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 01:22
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I think something we all need to think about is “who’s looking after the new pilots?”

Are we giving back to the profession by making sure new CPL’s have some assistance, guidance and representation for the minefield that is GA?

The membership rates of GA instructors and charter pilots is very low, and they are the ones that could use an industrial helping hand the most. History will show these folks will only join when they already have an issue, ie: they’ve been sacked, or underpaid, maybe if they had some guidance earlier, they could avoid the situation.

Should be looking to foster a culture amongst these new CPL of joining a union? As they progress in their careers they can, if they choose, become an active member of the appropriate pilot council.

If they join QF or VA or even JQ, Q’link (DH8) etc, they can then choose which union is for them, be it AIPA, VIPA, TWU etc, but at least they will have some first hand experience with Unions and be able to make an informed decision.

This could foster a co operative attitude toward each other rather than the long held animosity about something that happened long ago.

We are heading into an employment cycle we haven’t seen for a while, with all the companies playing the same IR games, this is not a time for us to be fighting each other.

If the unions can then have a co operative relationship under AusAlpa, then maybe we all have a chance.

Remember:
9CFD8AD8-85B4-4F93-B133-EF315A1DD27C.jpeg
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 06:23
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Roj approved,
answer 1- not AIPA or VIPA.
answer 2- see answer 1.

Hey Lead, do you remember Capt. Smithwell??
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 07:58
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Have any of you naysayers bothered to actually find out what this is all about or are you content to just keep heaping sh%t on everything AFAP?? Lead, Tuner, Is & Beer Baron??
Yes Don Diego, I do know what this is all about and I stand by all of my previous comments. I have not ‘heaped sh%t’ on AFAP at all, I have only called out the false narrative that you are letting run about this move.

I don’t know why you guys are being so coy about the plans if they are so innocent. AFAP don’t want their members quitting AFAP and joining AIPA when they get a job at Qantas. This will also allow current Qantas pilots/AIPA members to join/swap to AFAP.

So what is this NOT about; ‘Unity’
This is nothing to do with the pilot unions of Australia working together for the betterment of the industry. This is AFAP wanting to cover pilots who would have otherwise been covered by AIPA. It is a zero sum game.

Some posters have tried to suggest that this is in some way a merger or AFAP wanting to work together with AIPA. Will you admit that it is nothing of the sort?

Others have spoken about how good it would be if Qantas pilots and Virgin pilots could work constructively together to improve both their situations. Well this happens already today under AusALPA. A broadening of this sort of collaboration as eloquently described by virginexcess is entirely possible. But will you admit that this is NOT what AFAP is attempting?

AFAP has not reached out to AIPA at all to work together for the industry. And if that is some sort of stage 2 of this plan then starting out by trying to dilute AIPA’s coverage of Qantas pilots seems a very odd way of trying to form closer bonds.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 08:33
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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DD,
I remember Bert Smithwell very very well, an old fashioned gentleman. Last I heard, Bert was flying with RAOz.
And, of course, I also know his son, Ken.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 08:45
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Beer Baron View Post
Yes Don Diego, I do know what this is all about and I stand by all of my previous comments. I have not ‘heaped sh%t’ on AFAP at all, I have only called out the false narrative that you are letting run about this move.

I don’t know why you guys are being so coy about the plans if they are so innocent. AFAP don’t want their members quitting AFAP and joining AIPA when they get a job at Qantas. This will also allow current Qantas pilots/AIPA members to join/swap to AFAP.

So what is this NOT about; ‘Unity’
This is nothing to do with the pilot unions of Australia working together for the betterment of the industry. This is AFAP wanting to cover pilots who would have otherwise been covered by AIPA. It is a zero sum game.

Some posters have tried to suggest that this is in some way a merger or AFAP wanting to work together with AIPA. Will you admit that it is nothing of the sort?

Others have spoken about how good it would be if Qantas pilots and Virgin pilots could work constructively together to improve both their situations. Well this happens already today under AusALPA. A broadening of this sort of collaboration as eloquently described by virginexcess is entirely possible. But will you admit that this is NOT what AFAP is attempting?

AFAP has not reached out to AIPA at all to work together for the industry. And if that is some sort of stage 2 of this plan then starting out by trying to dilute AIPA’s coverage of Qantas pilots seems a very odd way of trying to form closer bonds.
Spot on. The suggestion that this is a strategic move by AFAP to force AIPA into unity talks is bizarre. Clearly that message hasn't translated to AIPA since they are disputing the rule change. If the grand plan is for merger talks then why not just come out and say so, rather than locking in a course of conflict?
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 12:34
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Hey BB if post #14 is friendly is guess you were just working up to the declaration of war?? Have you ever stopped to think that these new hires may have been satisfied with the AFAP and that they don't want to join the AIPA??
The AIPA assisted VA pilots to roll their own so that those pilots (VA) had a choice, hello VIPA, and they tried the same with the regionals but failed miserably. So it is good for VA pilots to have a choice (because it took members away from the AFAP) but let us not allow any choice if it is going to take AIPA members. If this one doesn't get up there will be another and another and another so hope you are in for the "long haul". I would be more concerned about your boss and his attempts to turn your operation into a "virtual" airline than I would about what the AFAP is up to.
Hey Lead, so you OB lads managed to get your man elected even though those no good domestic chaps dominated proceedings? Perhaps it was all just a myth and way more equitable than you make out?
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 13:43
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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How about a compromise, those VA pilots that feel they should stay with the AFAP also stay at Virgin.
Those VA pilots who want to fly for Qantas join AIPA (like probably 99% of Qantas pilots).
That way everyone is happy!
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 14:19
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps it was all just a myth and way more equitable than you make out?
DD,
In that era, Bert Smithwell was not the only OSB President of the AFAP, that didn't have the slightest impact on voting for any reform at convention.

You keep completely ignoring the various AFAP operational bans that would have made Qantas fleet expansion, B767, impossible --- why is that??

As I have said, several times, that was one of the "make or break" issues, and AN/TN were completely intractable, AN got their F/E B767, we were not going to wear that sort of bullsh*t.

I was there, and not fundamentally a supporter of the split, originally, were you???

Tootle pip!!
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 21:41
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
Hey BB if post #14 is friendly is guess you were just working up to the declaration of war?? Have you ever stopped to think that these new hires may have been satisfied with the AFAP and that they don't want to join the AIPA??
The AIPA assisted VA pilots to roll their own so that those pilots (VA) had a choice, hello VIPA, and they tried the same with the regionals but failed miserably. So it is good for VA pilots to have a choice (because it took members away from the AFAP) but let us not allow any choice if it is going to take AIPA members. If this one doesn't get up there will be another and another and another so hope you are in for the "long haul". I would be more concerned about your boss and his attempts to turn your operation into a "virtual" airline than I would about what the AFAP is up to.
Hey Lead, so you OB lads managed to get your man elected even though those no good domestic chaps dominated proceedings? Perhaps it was all just a myth and way more equitable than you make out?
You really don’t want to let the AFAP cover mainline members, that’s will only make things worse, not better. I can’t put it any clearer than IR 101 for management of pilots is “divide and conquer”. Doing it to yourselves is only playing into their hands. There is no doubt that there would be a lot of hostility between the AFAP and AIPA, if the Feds were present at mainline EBA. If you are fighting amongst yourselves, the company will slaughter you. Given the concessions made for the 787, and the changed market conditions, QF pilots need to speak with only one voice and stick it to Mr Joyce.
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Old 16th Apr 2018, 21:57
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Hey Lead, already answered your last question and therein lies the clue to the other ?? The only tech issue I will comment on is the 767 and you hit the nail on the head.
Virginexcess, so what do you say to those AFAP who wish to stay so throughout their Q career?? The way it is right now the Co is just waiting for them (AIPA) to stick their heads up so they (Co) can give them an absolute hiding. Sad but true.
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Old 17th Apr 2018, 03:01
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Hey Lead, already answered your last question and therein lies the clue to the other ?? The only tech issue I will comment on is the 767 and you hit the nail on the head.
DD,
What does all that mean?? What comments about the B767. Many various other bans and restrictions were really very important to real world (outside the two airline agreement) operations.

The OSB, over a whole range of issues, could no longer live with the AFAP Melbourne dictated policies. Hence the final unfortunate outcome.

I have had many years since experience of the AFAP representational activities, nothing to do with AIPA, and outside the industrial sphere --- and all I can say is that they are invariably negative, with a vehement defence of the status quo being the default position. No matter how out of step with the rest of the world.

In all of the above activities, the AIPA representative always, in my experience, took logical and considered positions, based where necessary, on rational risk assessment.

As I hope I have made clear, one (but only one) of the most indefensible AFAP positions was demands that "perceptions of risk" receive a regulatory response, even when it was formally admitted/agreed that the risk DID NOT exist.

Another that comes to mind was demand that the word "MANDATORY" precede much regulatory material, based on the claim that the "Australian culture" was that a law only had to be complied with if it was stated as being "mandatory". ONLY the AFAP has come up with the preposterous idea that a statutory provision need ONLY be complied with if it is preceded by "mandatory".

A useful contrast was the AIPA acceptance of ICAO airspace reform and the NAS, versus AFAP complete opposition to such change ----- and I did mention the matter of the opposition to the introduction of VOR, did I not??

I was there, were you??

Quite frankly, over many years, with its entrenched culture, the AFAP has, in my opinion, been its own worst enemy.

Tootle pip!!
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