Commuting Qantas 787 and other types
The other aspect that makes a farce of the whole thing is that FRMS largely is used in LH/ULR operations with augmented crews. In those operations it is necessary for one or two crew members to go on a rest break about 30min after pushback.
If all crew are properly rested when they arrive for duty, how are they expected to get some sleep in the first half of the flight. It's all just bureaucratic bull**** to tinplate some shiny bum.
As far as poking **** at the ME rules, at least they have two proper crews (Capt/FO) and they have a published rest plan so that the "B" crew can arrive at work reasonably rooted and go straight to sleep for the first half of the flight. Unlike the bull**** used in Australia at both QF and VA where there is a pseudo heavy crew with one Capt, one FO and two SO's. Virtually guaranteeing one of the operating crew will be totally f@cked for the approach and landing.
There is nothing about the Australian model that stands up to proper scrutiny, from the ridiculous "commuting" rules to the actual crewing of the flights. All just there so some manager can blame a pilot for the next screw up.
If all crew are properly rested when they arrive for duty, how are they expected to get some sleep in the first half of the flight. It's all just bureaucratic bull**** to tinplate some shiny bum.
As far as poking **** at the ME rules, at least they have two proper crews (Capt/FO) and they have a published rest plan so that the "B" crew can arrive at work reasonably rooted and go straight to sleep for the first half of the flight. Unlike the bull**** used in Australia at both QF and VA where there is a pseudo heavy crew with one Capt, one FO and two SO's. Virtually guaranteeing one of the operating crew will be totally f@cked for the approach and landing.
There is nothing about the Australian model that stands up to proper scrutiny, from the ridiculous "commuting" rules to the actual crewing of the flights. All just there so some manager can blame a pilot for the next screw up.
Vorsitch,
You wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about!
Have you ever operated under these circumstances?
Just about every point of your post is absolute rubbish.
There are no commuting rules for starters.
How about a system that allows a pilot who is tired to sleep and a pilot who is not to work?
leaving home around 1200 for the 1500 flt, arriving in Perth about 1800 for a 2100 departure to lhr. Of course that guy is buggered so 'I'll have the first break if that's OK, mate.' Except the other guy did the same...
Was he taking his responsibilities seriously?
And can you attribute any safety 'events' to the pilots you've inferred are being irresponsible?
I say let any car driver who's completely sh1tfaced drive too, especially if he hasn't had an 'event' before.
The alcohol/fatigue analogy is been done to death but remains relevant. Would you turn up to work after a few beers?
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Good point Keg!
I think 99% of crews do the right thing and rest as much as possible prior to operating. Yes life can get in the way like any job however the consequences in aviation are dire. You can't kill anyone behind a desk.
As Keg said the greater majority do the right thing.
It's not logical to pretend that a one in a hundred or a bar story is the norm, nor the idiot saying it's all automated and you just go off to sleep in the bunk at a time of your choosing.
Bit of poor trolling from someone who isn't flying in Oz, with a good chip on both shoulders.
I think 99% of crews do the right thing and rest as much as possible prior to operating. Yes life can get in the way like any job however the consequences in aviation are dire. You can't kill anyone behind a desk.
As Keg said the greater majority do the right thing.
It's not logical to pretend that a one in a hundred or a bar story is the norm, nor the idiot saying it's all automated and you just go off to sleep in the bunk at a time of your choosing.
Bit of poor trolling from someone who isn't flying in Oz, with a good chip on both shoulders.
Last edited by Gamechanger; 7th May 2017 at 22:07.
C441....
Wha'? What a Keg said!
I've not seen what you describe & I don't condone it but I believe it is an exception rather than the rule. I just don't think another rule is needed when 'a' pilot is less than sensible about their own preparations for duty; surely every company has mechanisms (from counselling to sanctions) to deal with ill-considered or inappropriate behaviours.
I don't see the relevance of your 'alcohol/fatigue analogy' either; we're arguing the same thing but you seem to be implying that you knew someone was unfit to operate but you let it slide anyway?! Alternatively, given that humans are often not great at assessing their own levels of fatigue, perhaps they started work in a fit state (even you were not alarmed?) but, as circadian disrhythmia can, your off-sider became very tired soon after departure. Predictable? Maybe. Desirable? Of course not! Insurmountable? I doubt it.😉
But given what you've described, I must have missed the Aviation Herald report about your experience.🤔... or was it actually managed adequately in the circumstances?👍
I've not seen what you describe & I don't condone it but I believe it is an exception rather than the rule. I just don't think another rule is needed when 'a' pilot is less than sensible about their own preparations for duty; surely every company has mechanisms (from counselling to sanctions) to deal with ill-considered or inappropriate behaviours.
I don't see the relevance of your 'alcohol/fatigue analogy' either; we're arguing the same thing but you seem to be implying that you knew someone was unfit to operate but you let it slide anyway?! Alternatively, given that humans are often not great at assessing their own levels of fatigue, perhaps they started work in a fit state (even you were not alarmed?) but, as circadian disrhythmia can, your off-sider became very tired soon after departure. Predictable? Maybe. Desirable? Of course not! Insurmountable? I doubt it.😉
But given what you've described, I must have missed the Aviation Herald report about your experience.🤔... or was it actually managed adequately in the circumstances?👍
Last edited by Jetsbest; 7th May 2017 at 11:19.
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As Keg touched on, unless rules are put in place around want you can't do before a duty (which would be impossible to do) then the whole issue about commuting and it's affect on fatigue is a dead argument.
Let's say we have a pilot is based in Sydney and lives on the Gold Coast and only a 10min easy drive to the airport. Allowing for their drive to the airport, check in time and flight time to Sydney their commute time would be around 2 hours. 1 hour of this commute time would be spent relaxing/sleeping on the flight down.
Now what if we have another pilot also based in Sydney and they live in Newcastle (or the southern highlands). Their drive to work on the best of days will be 2-3 hours, plus they have to put up with parking issues at the Blue Emu.
The pilot who has to drive 2-3 hours doesn't get the chance to relax/sleep like the pilot living on the Gold Coast does.
So which one is going to feel less tired (fatigued) at the start of their duty and after at the end of their duty?
Let's say we have a pilot is based in Sydney and lives on the Gold Coast and only a 10min easy drive to the airport. Allowing for their drive to the airport, check in time and flight time to Sydney their commute time would be around 2 hours. 1 hour of this commute time would be spent relaxing/sleeping on the flight down.
Now what if we have another pilot also based in Sydney and they live in Newcastle (or the southern highlands). Their drive to work on the best of days will be 2-3 hours, plus they have to put up with parking issues at the Blue Emu.
The pilot who has to drive 2-3 hours doesn't get the chance to relax/sleep like the pilot living on the Gold Coast does.
So which one is going to feel less tired (fatigued) at the start of their duty and after at the end of their duty?
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Vorsitch,
You wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about!
Have you ever operated under these circumstances?
Just about every point of your post is absolute rubbish.
There are no commuting rules for starters.
How about a system that allows a pilot who is tired to sleep and a pilot who is not to work?
You wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about!
Have you ever operated under these circumstances?
Just about every point of your post is absolute rubbish.
There are no commuting rules for starters.
How about a system that allows a pilot who is tired to sleep and a pilot who is not to work?
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Vorsicht
The 'published rest plans' are box ticking by the company, pretending they are providing method for crews to be properly rested for the flight. They are complete and utter rubbish - flights of fancy written by people who have never operated as pilots under Long Haul flying. Written, incorporated and filed to pretend they are looking after fatigue, but in reality only there so that when an incident or accident occurs they can blame the pilots for not 'following our rest plan.'
Hahaa. Too funny. I got a great laugh out of this one! The rules in the Middle East stand up to scrutiny?? The ULR 'rules' are written in stone.........right up until there is a crewing crisis and suddenly pilots are being called out to operate flights that under bidding rules, and previously 'set in stone' local nights policies, they couldn't operate - but now fall under the "you are legal to operate Captain because you now only need 18hrs rest blah blah blah (We are breaking the rules because we can't crew the flight and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it)."
But this took the cake!! As opposed to the Middle East where they are 'all just there so some manager can fire a pilot for the next [Management-induced] screw up.'
Wanna talk about how the Middle East model is holding up with pilots operating rested and not suffering fatigue?
Be my guest.........
As far as poking **** at the ME rules, at least they have two proper crews (Capt/FO) and they have a published rest plan so that the "B" crew can arrive at work reasonably rooted and go straight to sleep for the first half of the flight.
There is nothing about the Australian model that stands up to proper scrutiny, from the ridiculous "commuting" rules to the actual crewing of the flights.
All just there so some manager can blame a pilot for the next screw up.
Wanna talk about how the Middle East model is holding up with pilots operating rested and not suffering fatigue?
Be my guest.........
Last edited by keepitrealok; 8th May 2017 at 04:09. Reason: to emphasize it's always management induced in the M.E.
Nunc est bibendum
It's happening now. I recently spent the first three or four hours up the front with another pilot late at night, who couldn't stay awake, at one point falling asleep mid-sentence as he spoke. He'd been "busy at home all day" before getting the last flight to Melbourne. Unfortunately his offsider who was in the bunk was equally knackered.
Most people I fly with take their rest requirements seriously. Of course that doesn't mean you'll actually get the rest you want to. I'm a night owl so staying up to 0300-0400 for me is a doddle. Getting me to try and sleep in the arvo before a night flight?
You may have 10 yrs with EK , you pip me there ,I have zero.
From what you say, you have no experience of QF so I repeat, what do you know about that operation?
I have no experience of EK so I can't comment on how they do it in EK.
I stand by original comments, with respect to any comments you make re QF , you don't know what you are talking about.
House renovations, gym workouts, young children, running to work, driving long distances to work, well rested by virtue of paxing for the last 4 hours.
Sounds like there's people here who are either currently commuting from the east coast now and trying to justify it or want a gig on the new toy but don't want to move to Perth.
A formal FRMS system will in all likelihood be introduced and the company may very well include commuting restrictions. It will, however, merely exist as an insurance policy.
CASA are too impotent to enforce it and management simply needs a fallback position in case you're late for work or (heaven forbid) have a whoopsie.
So you boys can relax and keep commuting from the east coast, hang around the terminal for 1, 2, 3, 4 hours and then operate, quite possibly back of the clock, to wherever.
Sounds like there's people here who are either currently commuting from the east coast now and trying to justify it or want a gig on the new toy but don't want to move to Perth.
A formal FRMS system will in all likelihood be introduced and the company may very well include commuting restrictions. It will, however, merely exist as an insurance policy.
CASA are too impotent to enforce it and management simply needs a fallback position in case you're late for work or (heaven forbid) have a whoopsie.
So you boys can relax and keep commuting from the east coast, hang around the terminal for 1, 2, 3, 4 hours and then operate, quite possibly back of the clock, to wherever.
Nunc est bibendum
Lol. Justify it? No commuter has a need to justify their decision to commute to anyone else- except perhaps to their wife/ husband/ boyfriend/ girlfriend/ concubine(s), etc. Their only responsibility is to manage their fatigue to ensure they're fit for duty. Whether they've hung around at the airport for 1-4 hours is really no ones business.
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From all accounts Emirates are losing MANY pilots. Parked aircraft and shortages numbering nearly one thousand. Everyone going back to Europe or the USA and China.
The single biggest complaint. FATIGUE.
Not surprising given there are ZERO labour laws and the Sheik controls the airline, the equivalent of CASA and the airport operations. Nice little dictatorship.
The result must be the most dangerous FTLs globally. Pilots go sick genuinely and get a warning letter.
As a result Emirates have had a 777 crash and a fatal 737 accident with Fly Dubai.
Not to mention many incidents, tail scrapes etc.
So as others have wisely said. What does Emirates have to do with Qantas?
Australia has decent labour protections, decent FTLs,decent sick leave, proper laws, bacon
, and you can drink beer in public during the summer without getting stoned to death for doing it.
Emirates has the worst conditions globally. Why aspire to it or even compare it?
Back to the topic thanks.
There is a middle Eastern forum filled with thousands of Exhausted and unhappy pilots you can sympathise with there.
The single biggest complaint. FATIGUE.
Not surprising given there are ZERO labour laws and the Sheik controls the airline, the equivalent of CASA and the airport operations. Nice little dictatorship.
The result must be the most dangerous FTLs globally. Pilots go sick genuinely and get a warning letter.
As a result Emirates have had a 777 crash and a fatal 737 accident with Fly Dubai.
Not to mention many incidents, tail scrapes etc.
So as others have wisely said. What does Emirates have to do with Qantas?
Australia has decent labour protections, decent FTLs,decent sick leave, proper laws, bacon
, and you can drink beer in public during the summer without getting stoned to death for doing it.
Emirates has the worst conditions globally. Why aspire to it or even compare it?
Back to the topic thanks.
There is a middle Eastern forum filled with thousands of Exhausted and unhappy pilots you can sympathise with there.
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Post incident, everyone will be asking Qantas why they allow - even facilitate - crew commuting prior to ULR flying.
Unfortunately it's not about whether the individual effectively manages their fatigue or not, but to what extent the company limits the possibility (and their liability). They can't stop your renovations or your kids' flu, but they can stop your staff travel.
Home transport isn't provided out of kindness.
Unfortunately it's not about whether the individual effectively manages their fatigue or not, but to what extent the company limits the possibility (and their liability). They can't stop your renovations or your kids' flu, but they can stop your staff travel.
Home transport isn't provided out of kindness.
Ditto Lancer.
If a crew member is unfortunate enough to be involved in an incident and that persons commuting/rest arrangements are scrutinised against whatever current fatigue management process is in place, it will quickly become the business of many entities.
......... is really no ones business.
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Increasingly, litigation is bought against people, pilots are no exception. Any well versed aviation lawyer will explain that a progressive transference of liability has been undertaken away from the corporate and ending up with the pilot.
Pilots do understand mostly that 'the buck stops with them'
However, in a litigious environment, which has different rules in different jurisdictions any pilot seen sitting around an airport, for 4 hours or having commuted across the country to commence a pattern of rostered flying and then being involved in an accident, may find their impression of how the law views their pre-duty decision making is interpreted at odds with the litigant.
A commuter moving across a continent before duty may be viewed as 'contributing' to the accident that occurs later when duty has commenced. At the very least it would add additional stress when it could be avoided.
The FAA made specific reference to commuting and fatigue as did the NTSB in the Colgan Air accident.
Anyone thinking Qantas would rush to their defence if commuting were involved may want to re-examine their opinion.Any pilot wanting to test their defence in court would be welcome to provide a precedent in Australia
Pilots do understand mostly that 'the buck stops with them'
However, in a litigious environment, which has different rules in different jurisdictions any pilot seen sitting around an airport, for 4 hours or having commuted across the country to commence a pattern of rostered flying and then being involved in an accident, may find their impression of how the law views their pre-duty decision making is interpreted at odds with the litigant.
A commuter moving across a continent before duty may be viewed as 'contributing' to the accident that occurs later when duty has commenced. At the very least it would add additional stress when it could be avoided.
The FAA made specific reference to commuting and fatigue as did the NTSB in the Colgan Air accident.
Anyone thinking Qantas would rush to their defence if commuting were involved may want to re-examine their opinion.Any pilot wanting to test their defence in court would be welcome to provide a precedent in Australia
Qanchor & Lancer...
All valid points, but do you think a pilot who goes to work despite being unfit to do so will be forgiven during an incident investigation because they are not a commuter? The hypothetical and uncommon examples provided are neither necessarily linked only to commuting nor common occurrences.
What needs to change? Nothing. A pilot must not operate if unfit to do so. There are many recourses to deal with the few who abuse the privilege. Blanket rules are not the best way though!
Btw, I'm not a commuter & don't plan to be either.
What needs to change? Nothing. A pilot must not operate if unfit to do so. There are many recourses to deal with the few who abuse the privilege. Blanket rules are not the best way though!
Btw, I'm not a commuter & don't plan to be either.
If you alt pax, or staff travel then QF ARE aware of how you get there. Ticking this box:
Flight Crew are responsible for ensuring that they are fit for duty.
When making Alternate Paxing arrangements, Flight Crew must consider how the
timing and method of their travel will affect their fatigue levels and must plan their
travel in a way that effectively manages fatigue.
When making Alternate Paxing arrangements, Flight Crew must consider how the
timing and method of their travel will affect their fatigue levels and must plan their
travel in a way that effectively manages fatigue.