Aerocare exposed
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How is comparing GA pilots or LAMEs remuneration against bag chuckers valid?
Pilots and LAMEs are both skilled positions that are remunerated way below what they should be. If bag chuckers want more, then maybe they should have listened to their parents, paid attention in school and qualified for something better.
I tell my kids that if they don't want to spend their lives cleaning up after the rest of society (or chucking bags) for a living, then do their homework.
Pilots and LAMEs are both skilled positions that are remunerated way below what they should be. If bag chuckers want more, then maybe they should have listened to their parents, paid attention in school and qualified for something better.
I tell my kids that if they don't want to spend their lives cleaning up after the rest of society (or chucking bags) for a living, then do their homework.
IsDon
Spot on. We are in trouble if people start comparing pilot and Lame pay and career prospects to baggage handlers'.
I think we are ignoring/forgetting the QUALIFICATIONS involved in becoming a pilot/Lame compared to unskilled labour. These qualifications have a value and we are selling that value off way too cheaply.
Spot on. We are in trouble if people start comparing pilot and Lame pay and career prospects to baggage handlers'.
I think we are ignoring/forgetting the QUALIFICATIONS involved in becoming a pilot/Lame compared to unskilled labour. These qualifications have a value and we are selling that value off way too cheaply.
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Isdon.
I would really like to live in your world where good jobs depend on if you concentrated at school. Unfortunately in modern Australia that is not necessarily the case anymore.
The SMH has an article this morning about how as a society we are heading to part time work being the norm for most. That is certainly what I am seeing in my kids generation and the ones that I know are all uni graduates so I suspect that they did concentrate at school. We appear as a society to be heading towards the US model of multiple part time low paid jobs just as we find ourselves in the place where the most expensive housing in the World. How anybody could find accommodation in a major city on $50000 a year with a median house price of a $million is beyond me.
The point here is that with a low hourly rate and odd hours these guys are caught in a bind. Their total daily rate is about $13 an hour but unlike other part timers, they are not in a position to pick up other work during the "break". If they voluntarily leave to look for another job they get no income for what will probably be a long search and I doubt if they will have built up much cash on $50,000 a year living in a big city
In the past in what I think was a more caring world, there were 2 kinds of jobs. Lets call the categories "intellectual" and "physical" and the pay for most wasn't all that much different. The "physical" pay reflected the fact that the work was unpleasant and carried physical risk. I think that the latter category aptly describes a baggage handler where most that I knew over my long airline career had bad backs , knees etc.
I think as an industry we can do better and if we had, I suspect it would be a less cutthroat business than it is today.
Wunwing
I would really like to live in your world where good jobs depend on if you concentrated at school. Unfortunately in modern Australia that is not necessarily the case anymore.
The SMH has an article this morning about how as a society we are heading to part time work being the norm for most. That is certainly what I am seeing in my kids generation and the ones that I know are all uni graduates so I suspect that they did concentrate at school. We appear as a society to be heading towards the US model of multiple part time low paid jobs just as we find ourselves in the place where the most expensive housing in the World. How anybody could find accommodation in a major city on $50000 a year with a median house price of a $million is beyond me.
The point here is that with a low hourly rate and odd hours these guys are caught in a bind. Their total daily rate is about $13 an hour but unlike other part timers, they are not in a position to pick up other work during the "break". If they voluntarily leave to look for another job they get no income for what will probably be a long search and I doubt if they will have built up much cash on $50,000 a year living in a big city
In the past in what I think was a more caring world, there were 2 kinds of jobs. Lets call the categories "intellectual" and "physical" and the pay for most wasn't all that much different. The "physical" pay reflected the fact that the work was unpleasant and carried physical risk. I think that the latter category aptly describes a baggage handler where most that I knew over my long airline career had bad backs , knees etc.
I think as an industry we can do better and if we had, I suspect it would be a less cutthroat business than it is today.
Wunwing
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Isdon.
I would really like to live in your world where good jobs depend on if you concentrated at school. Unfortunately in modern Australia that is not necessarily the case anymore.
The SMH has an article this morning about how as a society we are heading to part time work being the norm for most. That is certainly what I am seeing in my kids generation and the ones that I know are all uni graduates so I suspect that they did concentrate at school.
I would really like to live in your world where good jobs depend on if you concentrated at school. Unfortunately in modern Australia that is not necessarily the case anymore.
The SMH has an article this morning about how as a society we are heading to part time work being the norm for most. That is certainly what I am seeing in my kids generation and the ones that I know are all uni graduates so I suspect that they did concentrate at school.
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Isdon.
I know a number who do have arts degrees and they all have good jobs. Its the more specialised degrees that seem to be a problem. But that is outside of the scope of this discussion.
Historically, as an industry, we have been very fractured industrially. In Qantas at one stage there were 26 unions who mostly "hated" each other. That allowed the employer and the Government to play each one off against the other. As a result, we are where we are today.
The reality of the IR process is that each workplace agreement is compared to the others and if there is a particularly bad agreement, like this one appears to be, then every other agreement including pilots agreements is subject to downward pressure. During my negotiating time I'd like a $100 for every time management produced a pie chart where all the wedges except pilots costs had gone down but our wedge had grown larger because we had held out position.
"Bagging" ( pun intended)others in your industry is always a dangerous tactic, as is eliteism.
Wunwing
I know a number who do have arts degrees and they all have good jobs. Its the more specialised degrees that seem to be a problem. But that is outside of the scope of this discussion.
Historically, as an industry, we have been very fractured industrially. In Qantas at one stage there were 26 unions who mostly "hated" each other. That allowed the employer and the Government to play each one off against the other. As a result, we are where we are today.
The reality of the IR process is that each workplace agreement is compared to the others and if there is a particularly bad agreement, like this one appears to be, then every other agreement including pilots agreements is subject to downward pressure. During my negotiating time I'd like a $100 for every time management produced a pie chart where all the wedges except pilots costs had gone down but our wedge had grown larger because we had held out position.
"Bagging" ( pun intended)others in your industry is always a dangerous tactic, as is eliteism.
Wunwing
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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I thought that Tony Sheldon from the TWU, who featured on the ABC show last night sounded outraged?
Well maybe the ABC does lean left, but that just counters the right wing Murdoch/Sky News side of the Media!
As an industry as Wunwing alludes to, it's pretty poor that colleagues are forced to work split shifts, to get something like a full time wage, and spend 15 hours away from family in order to do so!
I believe one handling company in oz, has a 2 hour minimum shift!
As an industry as Wunwing alludes to, it's pretty poor that colleagues are forced to work split shifts, to get something like a full time wage, and spend 15 hours away from family in order to do so!
I believe one handling company in oz, has a 2 hour minimum shift!
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Pinky.
Tony Sheldon from the TWU was definitely on the version of the 730 report that I saw. He was interspersed with the younger employee who spoke on the problems.
Wunwing
Tony Sheldon from the TWU was definitely on the version of the 730 report that I saw. He was interspersed with the younger employee who spoke on the problems.
Wunwing
I know quite a few CPL students who have worked for Aerocare while building up their flying hours as the work is flexible, I don't think many would see it as a lifetime career.
Compressor Stall I take it you are referring to GT, nice one LOL
Compressor Stall I take it you are referring to GT, nice one LOL
There is one critical point that is missed by everyone.
The airlines have the ground handling companies by the balls. They pay a set amount of $ per turnaround. For a SAAB it used to be about $125-150. It may be more now but probably not. the airlines treat it as a take it or leave it offer.
Now not all staff are on split shifts. Newbies and the low performers get the rough end of the pineapple. Better performing staff get much longer shifts. Out of a gang of 20 there would be 6-8 on long shifts and the rest come in for the morning and evening smash periods. You simply cannot have 20 people sitting around at mid-day or the company would go broke. Aerocare, Qantas, Virgin, Tiger, Menzies et al do the same thing.
I worked for Aerocare from 2000 to 2007. I had a great time there, learned heaps about the nuts and bolts of ramp ops and made some good coin too at the same time I was a junior instructor. It's very hard work and you do need your wits about you, especially when it's busy and at night.
You would be surprised at some of the qualifications of rampies. CPL's, sparkies, carpenters, mechanics, engineering trades of all types. Anyone who looks down on rampies should do it for a few months.
The airlines have the ground handling companies by the balls. They pay a set amount of $ per turnaround. For a SAAB it used to be about $125-150. It may be more now but probably not. the airlines treat it as a take it or leave it offer.
Now not all staff are on split shifts. Newbies and the low performers get the rough end of the pineapple. Better performing staff get much longer shifts. Out of a gang of 20 there would be 6-8 on long shifts and the rest come in for the morning and evening smash periods. You simply cannot have 20 people sitting around at mid-day or the company would go broke. Aerocare, Qantas, Virgin, Tiger, Menzies et al do the same thing.
I worked for Aerocare from 2000 to 2007. I had a great time there, learned heaps about the nuts and bolts of ramp ops and made some good coin too at the same time I was a junior instructor. It's very hard work and you do need your wits about you, especially when it's busy and at night.
You would be surprised at some of the qualifications of rampies. CPL's, sparkies, carpenters, mechanics, engineering trades of all types. Anyone who looks down on rampies should do it for a few months.
It really depends on the Airport and the business available. In the past they have operated out of places like Alice Springs where Tiger only ran 4 flights a week. That's a maximum of 12hrs a week for the ground crew. Compared to the Tiger Melbourne base which has flights leaving every half hour or so.
Above is spot on, the carriers have the final say. I remember back to when Tiger Airways started and they refused to buy those Mobile Lift Machines for the handicapped, something about passengers crawling down stairs would be cheaper than buying these thousand dollar machines that go up and down. Needless to say the lawyers were lining up quick smart and Aerocare was told to buy the lifts before they were sued.
Above is spot on, the carriers have the final say. I remember back to when Tiger Airways started and they refused to buy those Mobile Lift Machines for the handicapped, something about passengers crawling down stairs would be cheaper than buying these thousand dollar machines that go up and down. Needless to say the lawyers were lining up quick smart and Aerocare was told to buy the lifts before they were sued.
Isdon.
I know a number who do have arts degrees and they all have good jobs. Its the more specialised degrees that seem to be a problem. But that is outside of the scope of this discussion.
Historically, as an industry, we have been very fractured industrially. In Qantas at one stage there were 26 unions who mostly "hated" each other. That allowed the employer and the Government to play each one off against the other. As a result, we are where we are today.
The reality of the IR process is that each workplace agreement is compared to the others and if there is a particularly bad agreement, like this one appears to be, then every other agreement including pilots agreements is subject to downward pressure. During my negotiating time I'd like a $100 for every time management produced a pie chart where all the wedges except pilots costs had gone down but our wedge had grown larger because we had held out position.
"Bagging" ( pun intended)others in your industry is always a dangerous tactic, as is eliteism.
Wunwing
I know a number who do have arts degrees and they all have good jobs. Its the more specialised degrees that seem to be a problem. But that is outside of the scope of this discussion.
Historically, as an industry, we have been very fractured industrially. In Qantas at one stage there were 26 unions who mostly "hated" each other. That allowed the employer and the Government to play each one off against the other. As a result, we are where we are today.
The reality of the IR process is that each workplace agreement is compared to the others and if there is a particularly bad agreement, like this one appears to be, then every other agreement including pilots agreements is subject to downward pressure. During my negotiating time I'd like a $100 for every time management produced a pie chart where all the wedges except pilots costs had gone down but our wedge had grown larger because we had held out position.
"Bagging" ( pun intended)others in your industry is always a dangerous tactic, as is eliteism.
Wunwing
The killer to this argument is that one of the richest countries in Europe and the world in fact is the Federal Republic of Germany. A country that is heavily, heavily unionised, that pays high wages and produces mostly very well made goods and has an excellent pension system/superannuation. I doubt you'll see people in Germany not being able to afford a house or working for 3 hours then doing another 6 hours 5 hours later without enough money to go home in the middle. Germany proves it can work and all this union bashing and manipulation of the law to produce pathetic situations like the one in this thread doesn't need to be the case. Like anything, there needs to be a balance.
It really depends on the Airport and the business available. In the past they have operated out of places like Alice Springs where Tiger only ran 4 flights a week. That's a maximum of 12hrs a week for the ground crew. Compared to the Tiger Melbourne base which has flights leaving every half hour or so.
Above is spot on, the carriers have the final say. I remember back to when Tiger Airways started and they refused to buy those Mobile Lift Machines for the handicapped, something about passengers crawling down stairs would be cheaper than buying these thousand dollar machines that go up and down. Needless to say the lawyers were lining up quick smart and Aerocare was told to buy the lifts before they were sued.
Above is spot on, the carriers have the final say. I remember back to when Tiger Airways started and they refused to buy those Mobile Lift Machines for the handicapped, something about passengers crawling down stairs would be cheaper than buying these thousand dollar machines that go up and down. Needless to say the lawyers were lining up quick smart and Aerocare was told to buy the lifts before they were sued.
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I accept that a carrier into Alice Springs would be justified in using part timers for a few flights a week. I've never been there but I suspect getting between town and the airport would not take long. The big problem with Sydney is the distances those on this wage would have to travel to get back home and also the cost of parking or train. An in between job is just not realistic.
However, if the EBA included a reasonable wage, with a loading for split shifts, then the airlines would have to pay up as no contractor is going to tender below their costs plus a margin.
The real long term problem here is the award/work agreement which allows this to happen. In the past I have been involved in awards which recognised geographical differences. For airline pilots this is seen in meal allowances for different ports rather than a blanket daily rate. Hidden away are many more.
One of the "sleepers" here which if not corrected come back to bite all of us including pilots is the recent decision on Sunday work for hospitality. The basis of this decision is that Sunday is no longer a special day. For pilots and others who don't get paid extra for Sunday work, if you look carefully at you WPA you will find that your weekly/annual wage includes an inbuilt Sunday and Saturday work margin. It seems to me that the next step in the Sunday saga is to move it to all categories of weekend workers which will ultimately
impact on agreements with this inbuilt margin.
Wunwing
However, if the EBA included a reasonable wage, with a loading for split shifts, then the airlines would have to pay up as no contractor is going to tender below their costs plus a margin.
The real long term problem here is the award/work agreement which allows this to happen. In the past I have been involved in awards which recognised geographical differences. For airline pilots this is seen in meal allowances for different ports rather than a blanket daily rate. Hidden away are many more.
One of the "sleepers" here which if not corrected come back to bite all of us including pilots is the recent decision on Sunday work for hospitality. The basis of this decision is that Sunday is no longer a special day. For pilots and others who don't get paid extra for Sunday work, if you look carefully at you WPA you will find that your weekly/annual wage includes an inbuilt Sunday and Saturday work margin. It seems to me that the next step in the Sunday saga is to move it to all categories of weekend workers which will ultimately
impact on agreements with this inbuilt margin.
Wunwing
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Yes, but with the ABC there is susceptibility to union spin, they are usually not balanced, a shame because if they get things right then no one believes them.
