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Melbourne Air Traffic Control

Old 2nd Oct 2019, 15:35
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
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Originally Posted by Weapons Grade View Post
As a suggestion: all ATCs' KPIs should be linked to traffic efficiency, and without caveats - a flight takes either a COBT or airborne delay, ALL ATCs KPIs take a percentile hit. I am sure that will have their collective minds focused on safe, expeditious and EFFICIENT traffic management. And, do not get me started with traffic holding fuel and who pays for it, but who should pay for it when traffic holding invoked.
I signed up to the forum purely to reply to this. What an unbelievably misinformed and juvenile comment. Take the blinkers off and think again.

ATC are entirely trying their best every single time that there are delays in the network. They have no control AT ALL over the magnitude or configuration of the delays. To say that the runway wind limits (CASA regulation) or inefficient ground delay usage (Airservices NCC in consultation with airlines) are causing havoc is an entirely fair statement. But both of these have zero to do with licenced ATC. The single exception of flow controllers is basically irrelevant too. They only improve the 'flow' of traffic (It's kinda in the name), not generate delays.

If we put 'safety' to the side (I know, that sounds like a weird statement) and forget the CASA issue with the runway winds, there are still dozens of different factors that come into play with network delays. I could easily write a 5000 word essay on them and still come up short.
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 16:08
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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It will be the usual half arsed, 'worlds best practice' garbage. And before all you decrepid old ATC wankas that couldn't stand an ATC leaving before 'retirement' carry on, not blaming console controllers, blaming the clowns that put a crap COBT system in place, there's NO excuse for a ground delay then 'maxing' someone to the field when airborne. Amateur and an international embarrassment.
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Old 2nd Oct 2019, 23:51
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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Ever thought guys, that maybe the COBT system is just a layer to try and ensure a set amount of aircraft ďtargetingĒ the same 20 minute window, and not to get you to the gate at an exact minute? How on earth do you think itís going to work unless youíre airborne?

It was explained to me that the reason why you get max speed to the field sometimes is because the enroute controllers are merely working off a feeder time. Whereas the terminal controllers see the whole situation in close and can close up those gaps.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 01:11
  #504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Originally Posted by BlackPanther View Post
I signed up to the forum purely to reply to this. What an unbelievably misinformed and juvenile comment. Take the blinkers off and think again.

ATC are entirely trying their best every single time that there are delays in the network. They have no control AT ALL over the magnitude or configuration of the delays. To say that the runway wind limits (CASA regulation) or inefficient ground delay usage (Airservices NCC in consultation with airlines) are causing havoc is an entirely fair statement. But both of these have zero to do with licenced ATC. The single exception of flow controllers is basically irrelevant too. They only improve the 'flow' of traffic (It's kinda in the name), not generate delays.

If we put 'safety' to the side (I know, that sounds like a weird statement) and forget the CASA issue with the runway winds, there are still dozens of different factors that come into play with network delays. I could easily write a 5000 word essay on them and still come up short.
Sounds overly complicated. Surely there is a simpler solution.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 02:51
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
Sounds overly complicated. Surely there is a simpler solution.
Removing downwind limitations is certainly an option that would have a large positive impact.

In reference to ground delays, you have to remember that the airlines have a 'seat at the table'. If there were say, a low probability of fog or storms, the airlines are consulted with a view to ground delay, however sometimes their own met people decide to accept the risk in running a "visuals" rate. They have to play the probabiltiies. Most of the time it will be fine and max capacity is achieved, however when this doesn't pan out, the s**t really hits the fan. The opposite is identical. Sometimes, when storms are predicted and a ground delay is created, the storms don't eventuate and you end up in 'max speed' situations you mentioned because ATC are able to run a high rate tactically because of good weather.

The whole concept is unbelievably dynamic. I can assure you that once you take off, ATC are always optimising for the lowest overall delay.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 03:43
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer View Post
Sounds overly complicated. Surely there is a simpler solution.
Yeah, trains.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 04:17
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
Ever thought guys, that maybe the COBT system is just a layer to try and ensure a set amount of aircraft ďtargetingĒ the same 20 minute window, and not to get you to the gate at an exact minute? How on earth do you think itís going to work unless youíre airborne?

It was explained to me that the reason why you get max speed to the field sometimes is because the enroute controllers are merely working off a feeder time. Whereas the terminal controllers see the whole situation in close and can close up those gaps.
Fair assumption of how it works. One minor point, if I may? The better enroute controllers have generally have a look at the sequence and speak to the flow about a better solution than that proposed by Maestro. Maestro never speeds anyone up. It merely proposes a sequence order, and possibly delays, behind the natural number one. Speeding up number one and sometimes number two in a sequence can minimise delays for those following. Itís not rocket science...😉
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 05:48
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bug Smasher Smasher View Post

Yeah, trains.
And we have an air transportation system in which the chief protagonists, pilots and ATC, admit 'They have no control AT ALL over the magnitude or configuration of the delays.'

Not saying I have the answer, just sayin'

It’s not rocket science...
How dare you. This Australia. Everything we do is rocket science.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 07:38
  #509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Responses by ATC apologists are straight out of Utopia or Yes Minister. The hospital is empty but its the most efficient in the country. You just donít get it .
Allow aircraft to takeoff at their performance limit. If they need the long runway, let them use the long runway, on request from clearance delivery.
Put the x-wind limit back to 25 knots. Like it used to be . Or shut RWY 27 altogether and get the movement rate up to the same as Gatwick.
And introduce a real slot time system, not the half-a#sed COBT.
But either way FIX IT for pities sake! Have you any idea how pathetic this circus looks from anywhere outside Australia?

Last edited by George Glass; 3rd Oct 2019 at 08:06.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 08:51
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Responses by ATC apologists are straight out of Utopia or Yes Minister. The hospital is empty but its the most efficient in the country.
Exactly. Meanwhile over in the USA New York La Guardia which has crossing runways, a curfew, moves more passengers and gets much worse weather than what Melbourne could imagine in 2017 had 369,135 movements vs 239,466 in Melbourne. That's more than 1.5 times the movements with the same runway configuration and a curfew!!! Now if that is what is actually possible why do we have so much congestion?

Last edited by neville_nobody; 3rd Oct 2019 at 09:02.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 10:24
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George Glass View Post
Put the x-wind limit back to 25 knots. Like it used to be . Or shut RWY 27 altogether and get the movement rate up to the same as Gatwick.
And introduce a real slot time system, not the half-a#sed COBT.
But either way FIX IT for pities sake! Have you any idea how pathetic this circus looks from anywhere outside Australia?
I think by this stage youíve figured out the crux of this conundrum, ATC does what they can with what theyíve got. And when the majority of capital city airports here have poor (or no) access to high speed taxiways, awkward taxiway placement and inefficiencies in flow management capability the amount of investment needed to get us up to speed with proper modern airports would amount to billions... And I donít know if there are many willing investors out there!
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 13:28
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maggie Island View Post


I think by this stage youíve figured out the crux of this conundrum, ATC does what they can with what theyíve got. And when the majority of capital city airports here have poor (or no) access to high speed taxiways, awkward taxiway placement and inefficiencies in flow management capability the amount of investment needed to get us up to speed with proper modern airports would amount to billions... And I donít know if there are many willing investors out there!
That's the whole point there isn't it. Why did we flog off our essential infrastructure again?
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 14:29
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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Ever thought guys, that maybe the COBT system is just a layer to try and ensure a set amount of aircraft ďtargetingĒ the same 20 minute window, and not to get you to the gate at an exact minute? How on earth do you think itís going to work unless youíre airborne?

It was explained to me that the reason why you get max speed to the field sometimes is because the enroute controllers are merely working off a feeder time. Whereas the terminal controllers see the whole situation in close and can close up those gaps.
Drop the mike - this is the post of the thread so far.

Anyone posting here about how LGA does it....? Sorry, you are not regularly flying in to both LGA and AUS.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 14:57
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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neville nobody. Do not forget LaGuardia has 5 airports/heliports with instrument procedures within 5 nm and 10 airports/heliports within 19 nm.
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Old 3rd Oct 2019, 19:12
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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How.many of those high movement US airports are owned by private infrastructure funds..... ?
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 03:13
  #516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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I think you'll find that most ATC's love moving traffic, it's not only an ego thing, it's professional pride. Give them the resources and they will move more. Give them a crap system and you'll get crap results.

- Privatised airports, awesome! You're gunna get the best runway and taxyway set up there, aren't you.
- COBT, what an embarrassing joke. I'm sure that it's backed up by a state of the art flow management system, not.
- Movement caps and curfews, instituted by a member of parliament that hates aircraft, pilots etc but loves the Chairman's Club.

Watch Alan Joyce and the Virgin fellows episode of the Press Club, (iview), you'll see half of what aviation is up against in this 3rd world country parading as 1st.

morno, the explanation you got for COBT is a bit simplistic!

Last edited by The name is Porter; 4th Oct 2019 at 03:35.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 04:04
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The name is Porter View Post
morno, the explanation you got for COBT is a bit simplistic!
That wasnít an explanation I was given, thatís just simple reasoning that I came up with. I donít know if itís 100% accurate.

You people stress yourselves too much about small things that you can do very little about. I just accepted whatever came and dealt with it. Thankfully Iím only slightly grey as a result.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 13:28
  #518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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If by 'you people' you're talking about ATC's stressing about things they can't do anything about, they don't really, there's other things to stress about.

A better word is frustrated. Frustrated that you can do more but you're hamstrung by morons (politicians), more morons (privatised airports), and even bigger morons (whomever half arsed a joke of a COBT program).
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 18:57
  #519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the COBT program got taken out of the hands of the two FIR centres and got centralized in the NOC/NCC in YSCB. Some very smart people employed there in general theoretical mathematical modelling, absolutely no doubt , but maybe not so much ATC street-smarts learnt through the tactical fill the gaps in real time approach that a wily flow/approach controller can offer. General impression is that the infinite myriad of short term variables that occur in real time minute by minute can not be accommodated effectively by the program - and also that is gets ''gamed" by the bigger and smarter more well resourced players - yes, that one.

Rest assured it is very frustrating for the controller accepting the aircraft in to the terminal areas to see ground delays being applied to flights that could be airborne now, and filling gaps in the arrival sequence in the next 20 min, because the Harmony system simply is not agile enough to keep up with real time events, and has so many compliance exemptions. The smartest thing Airservices ever did was market this system as 'Collaborative' decision making - which means.... we/you are all implicated in the result!

Last edited by DROPS; 4th Oct 2019 at 20:59.
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Old 4th Oct 2019, 20:43
  #520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
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Oh, and on privatisation, and the US, and in particular LGA:

youtube.com/watch?v=5lL-Y-rgNr4
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