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Melbourne Air Traffic Control

Old 23rd Mar 2019, 09:06
  #441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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What's with restarting that track shortening inside the STAR, track to DABOG for visapp after being delayed for 15 minutes.

Increases work load for arriving crews, suits ATC, hurts everyone else.

or here's a novel idea - set up an RNP that works that way. Sheesh.

ADDENDUM: Or sort the stupid CTA steps to the East.

Last edited by Oriana; 23rd Mar 2019 at 11:09.
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 10:25
  #442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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No no no, Oriana. ATC sees RNP as the problem, not the solution. Not all carriers can use them so GNSS is the default. Thats why they got rid of the SHORTER RNP on Rwy 34. It increased ATC workload.
Youve got to laugh or you would cry. Australian aviation in the 21st century.........
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Old 23rd Mar 2019, 12:16
  #443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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It increased ATC workload
You don't really get it do you George.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 00:40
  #444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Well Pera, came straight from the Flow Controllers mouth in response to direct question. So why did they get rid of RNP on 34 then?
When RNP approaches were first introduced a few years back by Australias largest carrier there were curved approaches to a 3 mile final to a minima of 250 feet at every major airport in Australia, including secondary airports. Then they evaporated. Why?
Aviation in Australia in 2019....Worlds best practice.......not.

Last edited by George Glass; 24th Mar 2019 at 01:01.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 01:37
  #445 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
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etrust, only a public servant could think thats an answer. I never thought that in almost 40 years in aviation I'd see the system go backwards and apologists try and explain it away. And its only going to get worse. Pretty sad really.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 02:41
  #446 (permalink)  
 
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With the same strips of bitumen at Melbourne and a promised new runway for the last 35 years, it is only logical that congestion is an issue.
That an RNP approach could be flown with a range of speeds meant flow control was degraded.

Frequent visitors to London will be well aware that standard speeds and profile with related distance profiles are something that is used to enhance flow control, reduce confusion from different profiles and ultimately allows the airport to function at high capacity.
Add in neighbours, buffoon political 'idocracy' and other vested interests it is surprising anything happens at all.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 03:16
  #447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 63
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etrust,
- Wind back the privatization of Australian airports.
- Abandon full cost recovery at Airservices and allow them to actually provide, whats it called again? oh thats right, a service.
- Build the two parallel runways that Tullamarine was originally designed with ASAP.
- Re-institute the monthly consultations between ATC and Airline operations that used to workshop issues.
- Stop accepting mediocrity
Now I am well aware none of this is within the control of any one individual but right now Airservices and Airline Operations are like two non-intersecting Venn diagrams. Bit like the hospital that gets an award for administrative efficiency even though its got no patients.
Where do you see the system in ten years time?
End of rant.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 07:01
  #448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
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3 mile final to a minima of 250 feet at every major airport in Australia, including secondary airports. Then they evaporated. Why?
With the exception of the 34RNP, the rest of them were utter crap at YMML. The minima's were SIGNIFICANTLY higher for 16 + 27. The shorter 16RNP nowadays is pretty good, but the likelyhood of getting it is pretty low.

Seeing theres a few ATC'ers watching the thread, what's the go with track shortening when its quiet? 3 times last month I noticed minimal radio chatter and requested track shortening to both 16 and 34. Approved it was, but I was surprised no one really seems to offer any more. Are you waiting for us to ask cause it does feel that way?
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 07:52
  #449 (permalink)  
 
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Gear, I dont know what type you're on but the B737-800 approaches worked just fine. Everywhere. ATC was the issue. The approaches into airports like Hobart were a dream. All now a distant memory. Go figure......
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 09:34
  #450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Perhaps in the interest of maximum capacity, they found them too difficult to be able to sequence with everyone who can’t do them?

There are other people in the world to worry about other than yourself at Qantas buddy. Or is that how you all think?
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 09:44
  #451 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 63
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No morno, just that there is a thing called progress. Havent seen any lately.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 10:58
  #452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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I don’t know Melbourne’s specifics. But in my experience elsewhere short curved RNPs are great for number one in the sequence or multiple in a row, but the moment you get someone unable to accept the RNP or are trying to use them from different directions (see YPAD RWY 05 RNAV X / W) you will lose capacity.

Because the approach is curved, you have to pull the trigger on the approach clearance before the aircraft has turned into the final approach wind. You then don’t have the ability to vector without canceling the approach. It’s very difficult to use speed control effectively when aircraft are pointing in different directions experiencing different winds and different closure rates. Thus you need to play it conservatively and that reduces capacity.

Ask for direct tracking if you want it. We’ve been told
numerous times just leave you alone unless it’s needed.
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Old 24th Mar 2019, 11:07
  #453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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It’s an interesting concept these days.
Doesn’t seem to matter if you can see the runway or not. ATC decide how you are going to get to it!
It wasn’t always that way!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 02:20
  #454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 516
With all the technology of today considering the capability of what NASA did in '69 we struggle to arrange to have the latest techno machines sequenced to land during lousy weather in sucsession, you would think by now that it should be safer & easier than ever, but I regress, this is 'Straya' after all!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 07:07
  #455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Melbourne
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Originally Posted by etrust View Post
Actually, I think it is worldwide , not just 'straya'
Oh I don't know, I do fly international Ops & to my mind we are two centuries behind efficiency never lone professional rules!
We have the most benign WX, we have two fifths of stuff all traffic in the air compared to the rest of the educated world yet we have several brick walls in which we bang up against daily, one being corrupt politicians, another our aviation regulators who are hell bent on making Straya the best 3rd word country for ALL forms of transport & we are GOOD at it, in fact we excel in stupidity!!!!!
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 08:18
  #456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
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Originally Posted by machtuk View Post
Oh I don't know, I do fly international Ops & to my mind we are two centuries behind efficiency never lone professional rules!
Its the whole western world infected with the same disease.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_under_construction/

We at least have one new major airport under construction, Brisbane’s new runway and the winner at Wellcamp. The only major new airport in the west, Berlin, has been an unmitigated disaster.
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 21:17
  #457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 14
Looks like Melbourne ATC is at it again. Work to Rule, Industrial Action? Last night wind 140/12, cloud no factor, no use of runway 27= 30 min delay. Even when the ATIS wind changed to 160/12 still no utilisation of runway 27. When questioned ATC just said “not tonight”. This is ridiculous. Not only are the public impacted but also the pilots and cabin crew who deserve more time with their families at home. I bet the guys and gals in the tower sign off on time. I haven’t signed off once on time in the last month in Melb. Time to get the greenies involved and highlight the extra CO2 emissions MELBOURNE ATC or even AirServices Australia are responsible for? When the weather is sh&te no reasonable pilot should ever question ATC and delays, but when it’s good weather this BS has to stop.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 06:19
  #458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Originally Posted by Green.Dot View Post
Time to get the greenies involved and highlight the extra CO2 emissions
It is because of the “Greenies” that we are in this situation in the first place.

Left leaning politics and endless bureaucracy.

infrastructure hold ups driven by do gooders with no concept of the collateral damage that they are causing every day.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 06:51
  #459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally Posted by t_cas View Post


It is because of the “Greenies” that we are in this situation in the first place.

Left leaning politics and endless bureaucracy.

infrastructure hold ups driven by do gooders with no concept of the collateral damage that they are causing every day.
Rubbish!
The problems in MEL are related to the Airservices ruleset for runway allocation with tailwind and a lack of investment in a second north/south runway by the airport owner because it costs more than and brings in less cash than a new carpark/terminal shops.

Greenies have caused their their share of issues around the place but I can’t see their hand in the current YMML mess.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 09:17
  #460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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a lack of investment in a second north/south runway by the airport owner because it costs more than and brings in less cash than a new carpark/terminal shops.
That's only because the airports are not penalised for being inefficient. If airports were held accountable for airborne/ground delays there'd be runways and aerobridges popping up everywhere. Brisbane got to 60 minute airborne delays in severe CAVOK before they even made mention of building a second runway. Even then it was only because they were publically shamed into taking action that something got done.
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