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Old 11th Jan 2018, 11:21
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by onedottoolow View Post
G'Day Shoddy88

I echo what you say as being reasonably accurate but I have to ask.

7 Years as a Captain on the Atr and you cannot get a 737 gig! WTF ?

My thought, start studying the 777 manual as when the music stops not all will have a chair to sit on.
I wish it were that simple... and...

Yes, that is correct. 7 year ATR captain and I can't get a 737 or 777 or A330 or F100 or Tiger 737/A320. Nothing! absolutely nothing for 12 months because the cap is exceeded.

My only crime is that I'm an ATR peasant who is imprisoned by the company's creative use of the 10% Cap.

I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not under any freeze or anything, I've jumped all the hoops etc . I'm not even particularly high on the seniority list (there are plenty more senior who are just as stuck as I am).

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.

It's incredibly frustrating!!!!

Originally Posted by Chadzat
On a related note it amazes me the amount of whining about the cap coming from ATR pilots. My knowledge is that without this cap then integration would never have been agreed to by the company (VARA) at the time of the last EBA. Surely some movement is better than potentially none (or limited/unstructured as in the qlink case)
Nobody is whining about integration. The reason that we got integration was because when Virgin took over Skywest, certain managers were hell bent on taking away our business class international duty travel. This was something that was in our EBA and Virgin simply refused to honour it. When pilots started refusing to fly to Aukland for sim in cattle class, Virgin took Staff travel away from the entire VARA organisation. Engineers and Cabin Crew and even admin staff were sent emails saying that they can't have staff travel until the pilot "problem" is resolved.

Now I could get into a lot of detail here, but it would result in a very long post. The point is that giving up this business class duty travel was the main reason we got integration. The company didn't just do it because they're such great blokes!

The issue is that the integration came with a 10% cap, which was a huge mistake, but it was rushed through because the west coast pilots didn't really care as they were more worried about securing something ASAP before the F50 fleet was retired. (Understandable and I don't blame them).

The problem with the 10% cap is that it allows the company to completely make mockery of the the seniority system. This is achieved by offering jobs like 777SO and VANZ737FO positions. These jobs pay less than what an ATR captain gets so anybody who applies has to take a pay cut and be frozen on that aircraft type for 2 to 3 years. Of course when they offer these jobs they make plenty of false promises that there will be Australia based jobs on the 737 so that you don't have to take a pay-cut to progress off the ATR.
I and many others believed them and held out on the ATR until the good jobs came. The problem is that by the time they offer the decent jobs they've already used up the 10% (because all the FO's at the bottom of the seniority list went to NZ or the 777).
And voila... All the senior ATR pilots are stuck while the company employs more external pilots over the top for 12 months.
When the 12 months is up they offer more VANZ and 777 jobs accompanied by the usual lies and promises of AU737. The cycle repeats.
As the years have gone by, those pilots who went the 777 and VANZ from the bottom of seniority are now off their freeze and happily moving over to fly the jobs that we wanted (AU737).
Now you might think "you dumb ass, you should have gone to the 777 years ago and now you'd be ok"... Well yes, but that wasn't what we were told and most of us were tricked/deceived. Now its too late and even if the seniority list is followed they're only letting 6 pilots per year go (10%) so we are pretty well screwed.

The thing is that before integration, we were at least able to apply as external applicants. We no longer have that privilege. We still have to go through the same interview process as an external applicant, but we have fewer rights and opportunities to do so.

Last edited by shoddy88; 11th Jan 2018 at 21:44. Reason: typo
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 23:02
  #502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Virgin sounds like an absolute shit-show!
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 01:12
  #503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Asia
Age: 36
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'start studying the 777 manual'

I think It's been awhile since studying the flight manual had much to do with securing a gig. Better off getting a subscription to 'Psychology Today'
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 10:42
  #504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Shoddy - no job is worthy the stress you are experiencing in the hands of what is clearly a very poor management team. Work is another form of a relationship and you owe it to yourself to be happy and supported. Can I suggest that as long as you accept and are seen to accept this mistreatment by management this will continue indefinitely.
L.B
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 11:02
  #505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
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I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 11:27
  #506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Just quit and get a job with Qantas. You will have a much better chance than all of the internal hires due to not affecting their own subsidiary numbers. Problem solved.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 11:45
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fonz121 View Post
I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.
That's what I thought Fonz as well...although the ATR situation is far worse off. The JQ and Link guys do not have integration. The ATR guys are employed by VAA mainline not a group company...a very different situation. Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions. In addition the company will not give you a confirmed start date. I would have told them exactly where to stick their job although not my circus.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 12:03
  #508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions
I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 23:32
  #509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Originally Posted by shoddy88 View Post
I wish it were that simple... and...

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.
.
So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 04:37
  #510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
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So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?
Mostly ATR/VANZ/777 SO jobs but also some 737 FO positions.

Keep in mind that ATR pilots who stayed on ATRs and passed up on SO/NZ 737 positions to wait for Aus 737 FO jobs will still be climbing the seniority list and have access to their preferred 737 base and 737 command in accordance with the Global Date of Joining list.
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 10:30
  #511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Wish it was “Global” Goat Whisperer (including Atalantic) but it’s only Group....at this stage!!
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 10:43
  #512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Originally Posted by Fonz121 View Post
I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.
Your opinion is valid and I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. Maybe your situation is worse, it's kind of hard to see the forest from the trees while you're the one being raped.

I will say tho that I personally would prefer to have a start date at the bottom of the Qantas list in 2018 than to be stuck on the ATR indefinitely with a meaningless seniority number.

Maybe you guys are right and it's time to dust off the resume. Bit sad really, I put a lot of time and effort in here and it feels like unfinished business.
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Old 13th Jan 2018, 11:07
  #513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
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Thanks for the kind words.

I just wanted to say thanks to all those people who have reached out both on this forum and private messages to give words of support and understanding. It's actually been quite therapeutic to find that there ARE people out there who understand and care.

❤️
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 00:41
  #514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
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From what I've seen this whole pathway (including a seniority number in some cases) from a turbo prop section/subsidiary of an airline group to the mainline or jet fleet has been a total cluster fcuk in most cases.

The guys and girls who have progressed the quickest from the turbo prop fleet through the system onto mainline or jet fleet have been those who have gone outside of the system and left the group altogether and come back to the jet fleet as external applicants. Sad and perverse but true.

Those that show loyalty are the ones that end up being screwed.

Even those with a seniority number at mainline still miss out as they are not being paid the salary their seniority would have granted them at their "new fleet".

While the idea of a progression pathway and or seniority number is a very noble one and gives the sense of being looked after and feeling of security of progression it actually gives an outcome that is the reverse to its intention, especially in this demographic environment.

There is no incentive for airline management to move guys and girls up the ladder when their time comes as it hurts the airlines too much. Perhaps if there were a financial penalty involved they may be more interested. From the airlines perspective it's much better financially, to poach pilots from from outside at the risk of upsetting a few of their own pilots. That way you can transfer your financial pain to someone else.

If there was no defined/agreed pathway then airline management would not have the safety net of knowing they have a group of pilots that have a vesting interest in staying around. Pilots would be more likely to jump ship if they weren't getting a fair deal which in turn would encourage airlines to be somewhat more proactive in looking after the pilots within their group.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 00:57
  #515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
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I guess what it comes down to is this.

Donít ever work for a subsidiary or regional arm of the Company which is your ultimate goal.

If your ultimate goal is Virgin, donít work for VARA or Tiger.

If your ultimate goal is mainline, donít work for Cobham, QLink on the Dash or Jetstar. People are getting trapped.

Last question... if you can actually afford it or have a backup plan, what about resigning? If you resign - does that remove the restriction so you can go straight into the job youíre ďon holdĒ for? I expect very few people would be in a family or financial position to be able to do that.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 04:40
  #516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by Slippery_Pete View Post
I guess what it comes down to is this.

Donít ever work for a subsidiary or regional arm of the Company which is your ultimate goal.

If your ultimate goal is Virgin, donít work for VARA or Tiger.

If your ultimate goal is mainline, donít work for Cobham, QLink on the Dash or Jetstar. People are getting trapped.

Last question... if you can actually afford it or have a backup plan, what about resigning? If you resign - does that remove the restriction so you can go straight into the job youíre ďon holdĒ for? I expect very few people would be in a family or financial position to be able to do that.

I think you'll find in the future, the ONLY way to mainline will be through the subsidiaries first. The last question - it has been publicly announced if you're an internal on hold, if you resign from the subsidiary, your application is void.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 06:14
  #517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Originally Posted by Dunda View Post
Good question Slippery. At Qlink, the answer to your question was clearly spelt out in a letter from the Qlink chief pilot to those on the mainline hold file. It stated that if you resign from Qlink, your mainline offer will become null and void. Check mate!

As stated above, the fasted pathway to mainline has been to resign from the group first, then apply to mainline.
Sure that offer will become null and void, but it seems for some at least in the short term it's worthless anyway.

What would happen to someone who had an offer, who then resigned to go elsewhere (for a short time) and then at a later date applied as an external. I bet they'd get an interview like anyone else.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 11:25
  #518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Australia
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Qantaslink Dash 8 or Virgin ATR?

If one were to have both offers, what's the best option?
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 20:17
  #519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
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ATR.

You know that worst case scenario you still have career progression but you probably won't need it because QF or Jetstar will snap you up first.
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Old 14th Jan 2018, 21:32
  #520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Originally Posted by Inboundd View Post
Qantaslink Dash 8 or Virgin ATR?

If one were to have both offers, what's the best option?
If you want to get into Virgin later on then go for Qlink Dash 8. If you want to fly for Qantas Mainline or any other of their jet subsidiaries then go for the ATR gig, such is the nature of the game. Unfortunately, due to not wanting to affect staffing levels at the regional parts of their own business, they are prepared to say goodbye to pilots that leave to go to other operators rather than promote from within and treat their staff with respect.

JLS.
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