PPRuNe Forums


Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th Jan 2018, 01:45   #501 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location Location
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
How rediculous will that look, the ATR safe everywhere else in the world except Australia.
You are joking aren't you?
sumtingwong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jan 2018, 04:01   #502 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: A house
Posts: 601
A bit off topic here wrt recruitment.

In terms of the bypass pay issue, there are a number of issues that the Unions have identified that would be a problem if there was a dispute that ended up at fairwork. (Which it would as the company wouldnt just roll over).

1. EBA's dont bind on other EBA's. The history and intent of the bypass pay clause is to apply WITHIN VARA. Bypass pay is not mentioned within the Group Career Progression clause.

2. The Company would argue until they are blue in the face that the 10% cap clause would be their get out of jail free card. - quite hard to argue against.

On a related note it amazes me the amount of whining about the cap coming from ATR pilots. My knowledge is that without this cap then integration would never have been agreed to by the company (VARA) at the time of the last EBA. Surely some movement is better than potentially none (or limited/unstructured as in the qlink case)
Chadzat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jan 2018, 05:15   #503 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: The Wardrobe
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by 206greaser View Post
Narnia yes. If an ATR pilot wishes to now move back from VA to VARA to take up an F100 position they would have to interview and sim as they are not employed by VARA if they are on the ATR. The sticking point is that the ATR crew are under the VARA EBA still and that EBA has a clause in it stating that the company has to release a minimum of 10% to the VA jet fleet per rolling 12 months. There is also a clause about bypass pay which no one seems interested in pursuing.
As to your question regarding SO to 73 FO they have in the past held people for various reasons but essentially it is the normal route and there is no such cap applied.

SHVC not sure if Iím reading you right so apologies in advance, but you do realise the ATR is and has been for 2 years a VA operation right?
Thanks 206greaser. If i read correctly, the group is still divided down EBA/organisational lines despite GDOJ seniority. Didn't realise that ATR was a VA operation. No a group pilot but applying and wanted to understand as best I can the implication of accepting any jobs on certain types. All come up as simple check boxes on the application but the longer term ramifications from one option to the next seem significant.
Narnia Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jan 2018, 06:12   #504 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: BBN
Posts: 152
206 Greaser- I realize, but youíre far from being correct. As long as we work under an EBA under a different company being VARA and as long as we have to go through the same external process as a normal applicant, ATR crew are no better off. What we gave up for a pointless GDOJ date was definitely not worth this hassle.
SHVC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th Jan 2018, 07:40   #505 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 132
SHVC it doesn’t sound like you do realise. ATR pilots have no dealings with VARA. They simply have a VARA EBA. Also for someone who claims to work there you would also know that the JTA has been all but scraped. It is now a chat between the pilot and members of flight ops management as opposed to what it was like 12 months ago. I do agree though that their GDOJ number is worthless if it doesn’t get them what they’ve bid for.
206greaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 09:11   #506 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: down
Posts: 3
Have the last of the Embraer's left yet?
surfer rosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 11:05   #507 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: on the outside
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoddy88 View Post
This is my first post on PPRuNe in years, but the stupidity of this comment truly made my blood boil.

I'm just about to graduate to 7th year ATR captain and guess what.. STILL STUCK HERE!!!! Likely won't get to leave till 2019. I've jumped all the hoops, did all the right things, passed all the retarded interviews and sim checks years ago and all we've received as a reward are lies and underhanded delay tactics from a management team who are nothing more than tricksters.

The ATR fleet is a prison and it truly sucks being a second class citizen at Virgin Australia.

5 years on the ATR is a very "uptimistic" estimate. The whole fleet is under a 10% cap. That means 10 years!!! That's the reality. The company loves to crap on and lie to your face and say they'll let more than 10% go, but its all just lies to stop people from resigning. It has never happened and there's no reason to believe it ever will.

Now they've decided to put external hires and cadets ahead of even those ATR crew who have been offered positions on the 737 6 months ago, but were never given a start date and are still stuck on the leper fleet.

The company has hired a total of 2 new pilots for the ATR in the last 6 months, but I don't know of a single captain who has less than 1000 hours of leave accrued because the company has not approved leave in 4 [email protected]!ng years!!!!

A few facts about the ATR.
  • A new FO WILL BE STUCK on the ATR for at least 5-10 years earning less than the national average wage until a command opportunity comes up.
  • A command might become available in under 5 years if they're lucky, but I've never heard of anyone getting it in less than 4 to date. If the industry slows down, commands will be non existent.
  • If you do want to escape the ATR you have to do a full interview process the same as any external applicant. That now includes going to the Fokker 100 even tho the company has promised that would never happen. More lies.
  • Being an ATR pilot means you cannot apply for jobs at Tiger (you are considered an internal applicant and the answer is NO).
  • The rosters are absolute rubbish. Most duty's are around 10 hours long, but you're lucky to do 3 to 4 hours flying during the duty. All you do is sit at the airport fighting sleep. To give you an idea my roster recently had a 4 day block, which totals 41 duty hours. It's not a one off!!
  • We are not protected by CAO48 because of the exemption. This means we are regularly rostered duties of 11:30.
  • We are not protected by Virgins FRMS rules because we are under the Skywest EBA.
  • I could go on all day because this is just the tip of the iceberg. I haven't even touched on the cluster [email protected]$ that is the Brisbane base closure and the way crew were repeatedly lied to and mislead there.
G'Day Shoddy88

I echo what you say as being reasonably accurate but I have to ask.
7 Years as a Captain on the Atr and you cannot get a 737 gig! WTF ?
My thoughts with all due respect, my recommendation would imply start studying the 777 manual. If the music stops not all will have a chair to sit on.
So I guess this option would give you plenty of time for rest and at least you will finally get a jet gig.
Best of luck

Last edited by onedottoolow; 11th Jan 2018 at 11:38.
onedottoolow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Jan 2018, 12:21   #508 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by onedottoolow View Post
G'Day Shoddy88

I echo what you say as being reasonably accurate but I have to ask.

7 Years as a Captain on the Atr and you cannot get a 737 gig! WTF ?

My thought, start studying the 777 manual as when the music stops not all will have a chair to sit on.
I wish it were that simple... and...

Yes, that is correct. 7 year ATR captain and I can't get a 737 or 777 or A330 or F100 or Tiger 737/A320. Nothing! absolutely nothing for 12 months because the cap is exceeded.

My only crime is that I'm an ATR peasant who is imprisoned by the company's creative use of the 10% Cap.

I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not under any freeze or anything, I've jumped all the hoops etc . I'm not even particularly high on the seniority list (there are plenty more senior who are just as stuck as I am).

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.

It's incredibly frustrating!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadzat
On a related note it amazes me the amount of whining about the cap coming from ATR pilots. My knowledge is that without this cap then integration would never have been agreed to by the company (VARA) at the time of the last EBA. Surely some movement is better than potentially none (or limited/unstructured as in the qlink case)
Nobody is whining about integration. The reason that we got integration was because when Virgin took over Skywest, certain managers were hell bent on taking away our business class international duty travel. This was something that was in our EBA and Virgin simply refused to honour it. When pilots started refusing to fly to Aukland for sim in cattle class, Virgin took Staff travel away from the entire VARA organisation. Engineers and Cabin Crew and even admin staff were sent emails saying that they can't have staff travel until the pilot "problem" is resolved.

Now I could get into a lot of detail here, but it would result in a very long post. The point is that giving up this business class duty travel was the main reason we got integration. The company didn't just do it because they're such great blokes!

The issue is that the integration came with a 10% cap, which was a huge mistake, but it was rushed through because the west coast pilots didn't really care as they were more worried about securing something ASAP before the F50 fleet was retired. (Understandable and I don't blame them).

The problem with the 10% cap is that it allows the company to completely make mockery of the the seniority system. This is achieved by offering jobs like 777SO and VANZ737FO positions. These jobs pay less than what an ATR captain gets so anybody who applies has to take a pay cut and be frozen on that aircraft type for 2 to 3 years. Of course when they offer these jobs they make plenty of false promises that there will be Australia based jobs on the 737 so that you don't have to take a pay-cut to progress off the ATR.
I and many others believed them and held out on the ATR until the good jobs came. The problem is that by the time they offer the decent jobs they've already used up the 10% (because all the FO's at the bottom of the seniority list went to NZ or the 777).
And voila... All the senior ATR pilots are stuck while the company employs more external pilots over the top for 12 months.
When the 12 months is up they offer more VANZ and 777 jobs accompanied by the usual lies and promises of AU737. The cycle repeats.
As the years have gone by, those pilots who went the 777 and VANZ from the bottom of seniority are now off their freeze and happily moving over to fly the jobs that we wanted (AU737).
Now you might think "you dumb ass, you should have gone to the 777 years ago and now you'd be ok"... Well yes, but that wasn't what we were told and most of us were tricked/deceived. Now its too late and even if the seniority list is followed they're only letting 6 pilots per year go (10%) so we are pretty well screwed.

The thing is that before integration, we were at least able to apply as external applicants. We no longer have that privilege. We still have to go through the same interview process as an external applicant, but we have fewer rights and opportunities to do so.

Last edited by shoddy88; 11th Jan 2018 at 22:44. Reason: typo
shoddy88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 00:02   #509 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Short Finals
Posts: 67
Virgin sounds like an absolute shit-show!
Power is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 02:12   #510 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Asia
Age: 36
Posts: 93
'start studying the 777 manual'

I think It's been awhile since studying the flight manual had much to do with securing a gig. Better off getting a subscription to 'Psychology Today'
Gligg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 11:42   #511 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 59
Shoddy - no job is worthy the stress you are experiencing in the hands of what is clearly a very poor management team. Work is another form of a relationship and you owe it to yourself to be happy and supported. Can I suggest that as long as you accept and are seen to accept this mistreatment by management this will continue indefinitely.
L.B
"Littlebird" is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 12:02   #512 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 316
I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.
Fonz121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 12:27   #513 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 7
Just quit and get a job with Qantas. You will have a much better chance than all of the internal hires due to not affecting their own subsidiary numbers. Problem solved.
jetlikespeeds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 12:45   #514 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonz121 View Post
I know this doesn't help your frustrating situation but at least you have a seniority number locked away. Spare a thought for the internal applicants for mainline (link, jetstar) who interviewed in 2016 but don't have start dates until the end of 2018. A few hundred external hires jumping ahead in seniority permanently.
That's what I thought Fonz as well...although the ATR situation is far worse off. The JQ and Link guys do not have integration. The ATR guys are employed by VAA mainline not a group company...a very different situation. Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions. In addition the company will not give you a confirmed start date. I would have told them exactly where to stick their job although not my circus.
"Littlebird" is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Jan 2018, 13:03   #515 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 316
Quote:
Imagine you are employed by QF mainline as a SO on the 330. You have seniority to move into the right hand seat of a 737 or backseat of the 380 but you can't because of a 10% cap meanwhile externals are being employed directly into these positions
I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.
Fonz121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jan 2018, 00:32   #516 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: down
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoddy88 View Post
I wish it were that simple... and...

To add insult to injury, on August 1 they awarded a bunch of positions to ATR crew, but they did not give any start dates. Those crew who have been awarded positions almost 6 months ago are still getting flogged on the ATR and have no start dates. The company in the meanwhile is hiring external pilots and putting them on instead. All the while the company proudly proclaims that the 10% cap is exceeded.
.
So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?
surfer rosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jan 2018, 05:37   #517 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in the stars... looking at the gutter.
Posts: 365
Quote:
So are the external hires getting Australian based 737 positions or ATR and second officer places?
Mostly ATR/VANZ/777 SO jobs but also some 737 FO positions.

Keep in mind that ATR pilots who stayed on ATRs and passed up on SO/NZ 737 positions to wait for Aus 737 FO jobs will still be climbing the seniority list and have access to their preferred 737 base and 737 command in accordance with the Global Date of Joining list.
Goat Whisperer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jan 2018, 11:30   #518 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Doomagee
Age: 5
Posts: 401
Wish it was “Global” Goat Whisperer (including Atalantic) but it’s only Group....at this stage!!
Berealgetreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jan 2018, 11:43   #519 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fonz121 View Post
I do understand that but I guess our opinions of what would be worse differs. The ATR problem is temporary and as soon as you're out of there it's a non event.

Losing out on a few hundred spots on the QF list will have massive implications your whole career resulting in the loss of some serious cash.

Just my opinion.
Your opinion is valid and I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. Maybe your situation is worse, it's kind of hard to see the forest from the trees while you're the one being raped.

I will say tho that I personally would prefer to have a start date at the bottom of the Qantas list in 2018 than to be stuck on the ATR indefinitely with a meaningless seniority number.

Maybe you guys are right and it's time to dust off the resume. Bit sad really, I put a lot of time and effort in here and it feels like unfinished business.
shoddy88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Jan 2018, 12:07   #520 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Thanks for the kind words.

I just wanted to say thanks to all those people who have reached out both on this forum and private messages to give words of support and understanding. It's actually been quite therapeutic to find that there ARE people out there who understand and care.

❤️
shoddy88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:33.


© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1