cockpit visits
Join Date: Sep 1999
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Oh really?
Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.
Where does harmless chatter stop and your national security line start? Flight deck access is pretty fundamental and some very experienced people (think AFP and ex military, ASIS are more about intelligence gathering) make policy for all phases of "flight". Mouthy "airframe drivers" whatever that is, best keep that **** to themselves.
The people that would seek to do you harm, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. The people who design policy to protect you, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. So, shut the **** up.
Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.
Where does harmless chatter stop and your national security line start? Flight deck access is pretty fundamental and some very experienced people (think AFP and ex military, ASIS are more about intelligence gathering) make policy for all phases of "flight". Mouthy "airframe drivers" whatever that is, best keep that **** to themselves.
The people that would seek to do you harm, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. The people who design policy to protect you, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. So, shut the **** up.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, mentioned in this thread which would detract from the operational security of an airline and to suggest it is is just plain ignorant rubbish.
Do you honestly think that someone would use the information on this thread to smuggle a disabling device into a flight deck when you and I both know (well at least I hope you know) that you could (quite literally) drive a truck through the farce that is airport security?
No. The real problem with the aviation industry in this country is through twits like you appointing yourselves as the gatekeepers when you clearly don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
Gone are the times when, sadly, people with a keen interest in flying can jump seat for take off and landing, or come up for a visit in the cruise. I can see the point in that with the benefit of hindsight sad though the world is. There is nothing prohibiting those visits while the aircraft is at the gate, for my airline anyway, and most I expect, and there are no restrictions about making that information public.
So if anyone should "SHUT THE F$@K UP". It's twits like you IB. The world is annoying enough without tools like you making it worse.
Join Date: May 2005
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Di Vosh,
The basis of a serious security policy and procedure such as those found in the FAM is confidentiality. The day to day security procedures are not publicly available for a very good reason.
Ignoring such a fundamental policy as the non disclosure of company security sensitive information appears to be a pretty big loophole to me and in this case has highlighted a potential loophole.
Sure, discuss FAM procedures. Just not on a worldwide, public and anonymous forum! Pilots are not qualified (self included) to determine whats really important or what can be discussed as harmless chatter.
The basis of a serious security policy and procedure such as those found in the FAM is confidentiality. The day to day security procedures are not publicly available for a very good reason.
Ignoring such a fundamental policy as the non disclosure of company security sensitive information appears to be a pretty big loophole to me and in this case has highlighted a potential loophole.
Sure, discuss FAM procedures. Just not on a worldwide, public and anonymous forum! Pilots are not qualified (self included) to determine whats really important or what can be discussed as harmless chatter.
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Did years of droning Orion engines make you cranky Don? Don't blame me for the security issues, I'm just pointing out what is bleeding obvious.
Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.
Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.
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Did years of droning Orion engines make you cranky Don? Don't blame me for the security issues, I'm just pointing out what is bleeding obvious.
Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.
Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.
I'm not blaming you for the present security issues. What is bleeding obvious is your misunderstanding of them.
There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure. That doesn't make them classified, just not things the world needs to know, or probably cares about. This issue of flight deck visits on the ground is not one of them.
In fact things that are classified are specifically NOT in the manuals. Think about that for a while and why that might be.
We should be doing all we can to foster interest in our profession. Not only is it good for customer satisfaction, it adds so much more to my job as well. I encourage flight deck visits whenever I see an opportunity.
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FFS Don encouraging flight deck visits was never the issue.
There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.
"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."
Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!
Anyway, point made.
There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.
"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."
Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!
Anyway, point made.
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FFS Don encouraging flight deck visits was never the issue.
There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.
"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."
Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!
Anyway, point made.
There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.
"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."
Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!
Anyway, point made.
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Iron Bar
You've admitted that you don't know what you're talking about, but insist on telling us what you think we should publicly discuss, based on nothing but your opinion on what constitutes security.
MY OPINION (I have experience to back my opinion. Do you?) is that what has been discussed here regarding different company procedures regarding the timing of flight deck visits has zero effect on flight security.
To extend your logic via a process of "reductio ad abusrdum" you'd not be on this website at all admitting that you're a pilot.
DIVOSH!
You've admitted that you don't know what you're talking about, but insist on telling us what you think we should publicly discuss, based on nothing but your opinion on what constitutes security.
MY OPINION (I have experience to back my opinion. Do you?) is that what has been discussed here regarding different company procedures regarding the timing of flight deck visits has zero effect on flight security.
To extend your logic via a process of "reductio ad abusrdum" you'd not be on this website at all admitting that you're a pilot.
DIVOSH!
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Steel Rod.
Can't you see you've argued against your own point in one paragraph.
You say you have no issue encouraging flight deck visits, yet by so doing you are publicising (to the visitor at the very least) that they are possible upon request.
Presumably you know that and read the 7 year old concerned extracts from the official secrets act, threatening imprisonment should be divulge the details of such visit at show and tell on Monday morning. Or do you follow him around in your SUV with the dark tinted windows?
Can't you see you've argued against your own point in one paragraph.
You say you have no issue encouraging flight deck visits, yet by so doing you are publicising (to the visitor at the very least) that they are possible upon request.
Presumably you know that and read the 7 year old concerned extracts from the official secrets act, threatening imprisonment should be divulge the details of such visit at show and tell on Monday morning. Or do you follow him around in your SUV with the dark tinted windows?
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Guys, knock yourselves out. Talk about what you wish and have your own opinions, based on whatever experience you claim to have.
Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.
Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.
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Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.
Mate, give it a rest. You clearly have no idea about any aspect of security.
DIVOSH!
Iron Bar,
Just wondering whether this "disabling device" that you have based your concerns on has passed through security and if so why it wasn't picked up.
Perhaps a little less preaching and and more effort in getting laid will assist your outlook.
In any case Airline B pilots will also welcome the kids up the front!
Just wondering whether this "disabling device" that you have based your concerns on has passed through security and if so why it wasn't picked up.
Perhaps a little less preaching and and more effort in getting laid will assist your outlook.
In any case Airline B pilots will also welcome the kids up the front!
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Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.
PILOT DENIED SECURITY CLEARANCE FOR PERMITTING COCKPIT VISIT
Oh pleeaaasse make it me.
Steel rod has just got a bone to pick with me.
There is nothing I have said that isn't publicly available. Its probably even on the website under q and a.
I did have a rather large paragraph written about your character, but I'd prefer not to play the man and would rather kick the ball.
This is after all a thread about another aviation professional wishing to share with his child the same experiences he grew up with.
We as pilots all have the same aspirations and enjoy similar things. Probably why we were attracted to this job in the first place. It's a privilege to be able to share that passion with somebody else.
There is nothing I have said that isn't publicly available. Its probably even on the website under q and a.
I did have a rather large paragraph written about your character, but I'd prefer not to play the man and would rather kick the ball.
This is after all a thread about another aviation professional wishing to share with his child the same experiences he grew up with.
We as pilots all have the same aspirations and enjoy similar things. Probably why we were attracted to this job in the first place. It's a privilege to be able to share that passion with somebody else.
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oh crap I didn't expect to start an argument between all of you lol I apologize in advance ! Goblin, ur right that's all I was trying to do with my kid. I've actually had many conversations with my wife as to whether We will be ecouraging him into the industry or not. I know I'm lucky to have ended up where I am now job wise. It could very easily have ended up pretty badly for me in aviation if I wasn't at the right place at the right time. I remember my first time on a flight deck like it was yesterday. I was only 13 or 14 on a flight to Sydney on 767 (-200's from memory) . I was sitting there minding my own business with my parents when I was actually approached by a very friendly member of the cabin crew who asked if I wanted to go up front and visit the flight crew. I jumped at the chance and was then asked by the flight crew if I wanted to hang around for the approach into Sydney. It ended up being the first of many visits up front and my love for the industry has remained since that day. Again I know things are very different today but I want to at least try and give my son the opportunity to enjoy something that has given me so much joy (and a few nightmares) over the years. I'll let you guys know how I went after I get back from our holiday next week. Hes probably too young to understand anything just yet but at least they'd be memorable pictures ! 
Gentlemen, (I use the term loosely).
This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.
It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.
This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.
It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.
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Gentlemen, (I use the term loosely).
This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.
It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.
This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.
It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.
For the record. Flight deck visits are not a problem. I'd go so far as to say they are actually encouraged and looked forward to by the vast majority of us.
Ask the question. It will almost certainly reply with a yes and end with lots of happy memories. The ones like we remember when we were kids.
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Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.
There are rules (stupid or otherwise) written down somewhere, although the rules of different departments most likely don't agree with each other.
Whether you want to bend or break those rules, I guess, is up to you.