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QF Captain was feeling low...

Old 9th Jul 2015, 06:20
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QF Captain was feeling low...

From today's Age:

Qantas captain was feeling tired, sick and hardly ate on day his plane flew too low
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 07:09
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How many of us can honestly say that we haven't flown at some stage in our careers feeling the same way as the captain in the report?

Hope he hasn't been punished for being honest in his report.

We are all human.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 08:29
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QANTAS should be grounded immediately for busting an altitude and not allowed back into the air until proven safe.

Just like Tigerair
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 08:46
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NEW LANGUAGE USED IN AUSTRALIA

What on earth do the words INEFFECTIVE TARGET ALTITUDE mean? What a weird way to describe a complete lack of S.A. and poor terrain awareness.If it were Garuda or Thai Air, every man and his dog would be going on about POOR AIRMANSHIP etc etc, but no not QANTAS, ......they never make mistakes apparently.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 08:50
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Don't agree Metro Man, why should an airline be grounded due to one person's mistake? The key to a positive outcome for all concerned is how did QANTAS address the incident after the report was filed.

We as an industry must get away from the blame and punishment philosophy and utilise the Just Culture process.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 08:54
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Umm, sure I have been low and messed up profiles from time to time. But only 600 ft above the ground with 9nm to run on a VISUAL approach is pretty extreme.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:05
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Sounds like another QF 1 wake up call for QF management and rostering practices.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:25
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Huh? You think the magic A330 knows it's 600' 9 nm from landing in VMC and will automatically climb back up????

The GPWS did warn them as designed and they reacted.

With the Captain obviously operating at lower than desirable levels I'm wondering what took the FO so long to say something.....
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:33
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Tigerair was grounded for "systemic failures"

One error like this in VMC is hardly up to the incredibly low standard of Tiger.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:48
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Question? What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:53
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What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far.
Doesn't the article say he did speak up..... ?
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 09:57
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Yes but as I said "what took the FO so long" he should know how high they were supposed to be at that point and when they went say 200' below with no comment or correction from the Captain he should have began to question the Captain......
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 10:22
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What was the PM in this case the FO doing? Should have alerted prior to it going this far.
Doesn't the article say he did speak up..... ?
Exactly, the FO did call out that they were too low. At ROD 2,200 ft/min it was all happening pretty quickly. They pulled up 1,900 ft below the glideslope which sounds like it took 45 seconds or so to realise the situation was awry and fix it.

Lucky it wasn't NZQN.

The investigation final report is available here: Investigation: AO-2013-047 - Flight path management and ground proximity warning involving Airbus A330-202, VH-EBV, 15 km NNE of Melbourne Airport, Victoria on 8 March 2013
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 10:32
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I do not care if the press pick up on this moderators but the fact is that there are too many fatigued pilots out there. I gave up commercial aviation because of it.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 11:01
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Who cares about all the wotifs, let's move on from the blame game and work together to make aviation a better and more enjoyable environment to work in!
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 11:21
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from the report
Air traffic control procedures
Air traffic controllers are able to issue clearances for visual approaches when flight crew have established and can continue flight to the airport with continuous visual reference to the ground or water and with visibility at least 5 km. Once an air traffic controller clears a crew to conduct a visual approach, the crew has responsibility to maintain separation from terrain and, in the case of the occurrence flight, remain at least 500 ft above the lower limit of controlled airspace.
After the occurrence, the air traffic service provider (Airservices Australia) advised that the minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) had been inhibited in certain areas to the north-east of Melbourne to reduce the number of false alarms in those areas. In addition, Airservices Australia advised that when a flight is cleared for a visual approach its corresponding cleared flight level is set to 000 (ft) on the controllerís air situation display. As a result, the system automatically inhibits the MSAW aural alarm and display for that flight.
Really, is this good enough?

Minimum safe altitude warning system (MSAW) had been inhibited in certain areas to the north-east of Melbourne to reduce the number of false alarms in those areas.

Why not fix the software to reduce the number of false alarms?
Why not develop SOP to reduce the likelihood of false alarms?
Was a safety alert issued by the controller?
Swiss cheese anyone?
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 11:40
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From the other side of the radio, all too often you see individual performance diminished due to various human factors, especially fatigue. Lip service on fatiue is paid by management, but it genuinely astounds me how often fatigue is dismissed by individuals who are prepared to plug in on medium to high fatigue. The effects of operating on high fatigue, and the resulting diminished performance and decision making process, cannot be understated.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 12:00
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After reading the report I would suggest the ATSB has gone easy on the Captain and QF. Even the Safety Message makes no reference to the dangers of flying with the conditions being experienced by the Captain.

Flying with a cold/virus let alone with disrupted and restricted sleep is downright dangerous and irresponsible in my opinion and should have not occurred. There is also the risk of a permanent reduction in hearing ability in some circumstances.
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 12:03
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I can just imagine if this was Jetstar. The Qantas guys would be relentless...

Open decent below 2000 feet with 1000 feet set in the altitude selector? Ouch.

We all have a bad day I suppose. Glad it wasn't me.

So I suppose they will dicipline the SO, demote the FO and congratulate the captain for outstanding CRM and saving the day?
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Old 9th Jul 2015, 12:12
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I have never seen a airport with so many carriers breaking MSA.

In the last three years Tiger a320, Jetstar A320, Thai twice, Malaysian, AirAsia a330 now QF 330.
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