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There appears to be a meeting next week between the company and the EBA negotiating team to decide what's best for the soon to be displaced pilots. I wonder;
Will there be any interaction between the pilot representatives and the affected pilots to get their input into their future?
Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?
I don't really understand get why we are discussing a fleet freeze, the way I see it if its removed the CNS crew lose out due to the overwhelming numbers of BN crew that will bid, if it remains the CNS crew lose out due to the narrow fleet choice and location available.
What is needed is a transitional agreement that caters for the crew who are in no man's land after the 300 is removed from CNS base and the BN base. Switching base to the detriment of another workmate who may be suffering is not a good idea. It will divide the pilot group.
3W
Will there be any interaction between the pilot representatives and the affected pilots to get their input into their future?
Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?
I don't really understand get why we are discussing a fleet freeze, the way I see it if its removed the CNS crew lose out due to the overwhelming numbers of BN crew that will bid, if it remains the CNS crew lose out due to the narrow fleet choice and location available.
What is needed is a transitional agreement that caters for the crew who are in no man's land after the 300 is removed from CNS base and the BN base. Switching base to the detriment of another workmate who may be suffering is not a good idea. It will divide the pilot group.
3W
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HB
Yep that's the way it is. You make your choices and then wear it. Sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't. One door shuts and another opens. This game is a gamble from the start to the finish.
Go with it!
SN
Yep that's the way it is. You make your choices and then wear it. Sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't. One door shuts and another opens. This game is a gamble from the start to the finish.
Go with it!
SN
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Three wheeler,
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.
"Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?"
Well there are 500+ pilots in the EAA/SSA group, of which maybe 4 or 5 at most will be pilot reps dealing with this matter. So what do you think are the chances of pilot reps being affected?
If there were more pilots willing to step up and be a part of the council rather than sitting back and whinging on here that the reps aren't representing you the way you want them to (maybe because you don't talk to them)......
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.
"Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?"
Well there are 500+ pilots in the EAA/SSA group, of which maybe 4 or 5 at most will be pilot reps dealing with this matter. So what do you think are the chances of pilot reps being affected?
If there were more pilots willing to step up and be a part of the council rather than sitting back and whinging on here that the reps aren't representing you the way you want them to (maybe because you don't talk to them)......
Three wheeler,
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.
With a coal fired power station opening every week in China Fonz, not sure who the f***ing idiot is?
Hi airdualbleedfault
This isn't really the place for this discussion so I'll say what I have to say and leave it at that.
Yes you're right, China have been opening a new coal fired power station every week. I did say "Yes it will still be a major energy source for the likes of India and China for the foreseeable future".
But this is slowing and a lot of nations are doing the opposite. There's slight disagreement on when we'll hit peak coal (between 2014 and 2020 depending on the report) but it's generally agreed if it hasn't happened yet it will be soon.
One such report is from a London based NGO called Carbon Tracker titled "Carbon supply cost curves: Evaluating financial risk to coal capital expenditures". It's an interesting read. One paragraph that summarises the situation well is this: My bold.
Full paper at http://www.carbontracker.org/wp-cont...-2014-WEB1.pdf
You obviously think differently on this matter which is fine. I've put my money where my mouth is (so to speak) by taking it out of any coal related investments. I trust you're loading up if you're of the same opinion as Monsieur Abbott. Coal is the future indeed.
Feel free to PM if you want to carry on the debate.
Back to the topic at hand.
This isn't really the place for this discussion so I'll say what I have to say and leave it at that.
Yes you're right, China have been opening a new coal fired power station every week. I did say "Yes it will still be a major energy source for the likes of India and China for the foreseeable future".
But this is slowing and a lot of nations are doing the opposite. There's slight disagreement on when we'll hit peak coal (between 2014 and 2020 depending on the report) but it's generally agreed if it hasn't happened yet it will be soon.
One such report is from a London based NGO called Carbon Tracker titled "Carbon supply cost curves: Evaluating financial risk to coal capital expenditures". It's an interesting read. One paragraph that summarises the situation well is this: My bold.
Over the last three years, the Bloomberg Global Coal Equity Index has lost half of its value while broad market indices are up over 30 percent. In the pure coal sector there is only one trend – downward; coal prices are down, returns are down, share prices are down. Some analysts are already calling a structural decline in the seaborne thermal coal market.
You obviously think differently on this matter which is fine. I've put my money where my mouth is (so to speak) by taking it out of any coal related investments. I trust you're loading up if you're of the same opinion as Monsieur Abbott. Coal is the future indeed.
Feel free to PM if you want to carry on the debate.
Back to the topic at hand.
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Instead of exploding into emotion, I will be factual
One fact: Canberra base opened as a SSA base for the Q400. A certain F/O at the time, perhaps the second person on this page,
Principal Officers don't want to make this certain...up to you to decide...
spat the dummy when a pilot, 1 number less on the seniority list was required by the company to fly out of Brisbane as the Captain. Oh, I better call in sick after turning up to work!
I hope all of SSA is united in this, including the SSA pilot council. Stop being a bunch of selfish, ignorant bunch of bullies. How about agreeing to merging the seniority with EEA for no extra money for yourself. Forget the fact that 'if' jets come! Oh, I could be out of pocket if the wages are higher than the Q400. You will support people and their families! IF YOU HAD A HEART, YOU WOULD HAVE DONE THIS. YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING THE PILOTS FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS!
We talk about pilot unity, well, time to get on with it SSA council!
One fact: Canberra base opened as a SSA base for the Q400. A certain F/O at the time, perhaps the second person on this page,
Principal Officers don't want to make this certain...up to you to decide...
spat the dummy when a pilot, 1 number less on the seniority list was required by the company to fly out of Brisbane as the Captain. Oh, I better call in sick after turning up to work!
I hope all of SSA is united in this, including the SSA pilot council. Stop being a bunch of selfish, ignorant bunch of bullies. How about agreeing to merging the seniority with EEA for no extra money for yourself. Forget the fact that 'if' jets come! Oh, I could be out of pocket if the wages are higher than the Q400. You will support people and their families! IF YOU HAD A HEART, YOU WOULD HAVE DONE THIS. YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING THE PILOTS FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS!
We talk about pilot unity, well, time to get on with it SSA council!
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Ok I'll bite. Yadot, the only people blocking a combined list is the Company. BOTH pilot councils have a few times tried to get them combined only to be blocked by Qantas HR.
As for jets, the SSA pilot council was asked many moons ago to put a jet rate into the EBA by....the Company. I'm pretty sure most if not all SSA pilots don't believe for one second jets are coming. Cobham seem to do that job just fine.
I know you're looking for someone to blame at this emotional time. Perhaps look towards those that make the decisions. Yep, the Company.
Neither pilot council was consulted at all prior to the 'big annoucment' and both pilot councils are no doubt working very hard to get the best for the pilots out of this mess.
If you have any concerns I suggest you talk to your reps. Otherwise, STFU.
As for jets, the SSA pilot council was asked many moons ago to put a jet rate into the EBA by....the Company. I'm pretty sure most if not all SSA pilots don't believe for one second jets are coming. Cobham seem to do that job just fine.
I know you're looking for someone to blame at this emotional time. Perhaps look towards those that make the decisions. Yep, the Company.
Neither pilot council was consulted at all prior to the 'big annoucment' and both pilot councils are no doubt working very hard to get the best for the pilots out of this mess.
If you have any concerns I suggest you talk to your reps. Otherwise, STFU.
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Soup Nazi,
I agree in principle with what you are saying, but if you know where these magical wonderful jet jobs are going for that are openly taking Q400 drivers then please feel free to PM me
FYI I am in 2 holding pools with major oz airlines and there is almost zero movement. I'd be more than happy to take LWOP
I agree in principle with what you are saying, but if you know where these magical wonderful jet jobs are going for that are openly taking Q400 drivers then please feel free to PM me
FYI I am in 2 holding pools with major oz airlines and there is almost zero movement. I'd be more than happy to take LWOP
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There is no pint winging about the pilots rep's. You voted them in just a couple of months ago remember. I believe there was around 105 votes cast in SSA of which about 23 were cast from the CNS based crew. Pathetic turnout when you consider there are 254 on the list of which 60 or so are CNS based.
If you didn't vote STFU! The Rep's I know have good intentions but remember the council is bigger than any one individual.
SN
If you didn't vote STFU! The Rep's I know have good intentions but remember the council is bigger than any one individual.
SN
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Doesn't anyone learn from history?????
You people keep banging your heads against a brick wall, and all you're doing is hurting your heads.
i was on the integration committee WAY BACK in 2007 when both EAA and SA (not SSA) came to an agreement that would have met both pilot group's expectations.
The company knocked it back then, and, I believe has done so once more since.
I still remember the look on Snake's face when we told him we had made an in-principle agreement. It took him 3 weeks to come back to say they "couldn't do it". The company has NEVER had any intention of merging the pilot groups as long as they have the leverage to keep them bidding against each other industrially.
The same as those dumbarses that still, after over 20 years, believe that EAA/SA will get jets. These same people fell for the diversion that included a "jet rate" into the EBA. (Anyone with half a brain would know that this clause was only there to get Cobham to sharpen their pencils at contract renewal time). You don't have to worry about that now - Network is the new lever for jet ops, and will go head-to-head with Cobham now that they have an RPT licence.
And you still won't get jets!
Wake up to yourselves - forget the jets - work together and protect what you have. If it means giving the company a bloody nose, then so be it.
That's the only way to gain traction in your EBA. Stand up to them!
Punch them in the nose.
NB: For the FO's stalled on promotion - Ask your captains next time you fly with them why they persist on working days off? Every day worked on a day off is a promotion lost for you. I refused to work days off when I was there for that very reason.
And you FO's that work your days off - Wonder why your duty hours are so high? Wonder why you're so low on the seniority list? Because the company deliberately holds establishment numbers low, and counts on a number of you working days off.
Just think - those of you FO's facing possible redundancy may have sealed your fate by working days off. Nobody likes to see work colleagues made redundant, but seniority is king. By working your days off you may have prevented the company recruiting extra FO's if you had declined to work days off.
You guys really need to get organised. You need to keep the line of communication open between the 2 pilot councils (if it isn't already so) and agree to keep a baseline position with your EBA's. That way the company cannot continue to split the 2 groups in the way it has done for the last 20 years.
That will require determination. Determination that seems to be lacking.
i was on the integration committee WAY BACK in 2007 when both EAA and SA (not SSA) came to an agreement that would have met both pilot group's expectations.
The company knocked it back then, and, I believe has done so once more since.
I still remember the look on Snake's face when we told him we had made an in-principle agreement. It took him 3 weeks to come back to say they "couldn't do it". The company has NEVER had any intention of merging the pilot groups as long as they have the leverage to keep them bidding against each other industrially.
The same as those dumbarses that still, after over 20 years, believe that EAA/SA will get jets. These same people fell for the diversion that included a "jet rate" into the EBA. (Anyone with half a brain would know that this clause was only there to get Cobham to sharpen their pencils at contract renewal time). You don't have to worry about that now - Network is the new lever for jet ops, and will go head-to-head with Cobham now that they have an RPT licence.
And you still won't get jets!
Wake up to yourselves - forget the jets - work together and protect what you have. If it means giving the company a bloody nose, then so be it.
That's the only way to gain traction in your EBA. Stand up to them!
Punch them in the nose.
NB: For the FO's stalled on promotion - Ask your captains next time you fly with them why they persist on working days off? Every day worked on a day off is a promotion lost for you. I refused to work days off when I was there for that very reason.
And you FO's that work your days off - Wonder why your duty hours are so high? Wonder why you're so low on the seniority list? Because the company deliberately holds establishment numbers low, and counts on a number of you working days off.
Just think - those of you FO's facing possible redundancy may have sealed your fate by working days off. Nobody likes to see work colleagues made redundant, but seniority is king. By working your days off you may have prevented the company recruiting extra FO's if you had declined to work days off.
You guys really need to get organised. You need to keep the line of communication open between the 2 pilot councils (if it isn't already so) and agree to keep a baseline position with your EBA's. That way the company cannot continue to split the 2 groups in the way it has done for the last 20 years.
That will require determination. Determination that seems to be lacking.
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Nowthatsfunny
With a matter of this nature I would have thought there would be some consultation between those attending the meeting, who by the way are not all elected by the general pilot body, and those affected directly by its outcome. Sure we can give them a call but that's not taking an across the board survey of the general feeling amongst the crew. Nothing heard, only silence!
3W
With a matter of this nature I would have thought there would be some consultation between those attending the meeting, who by the way are not all elected by the general pilot body, and those affected directly by its outcome. Sure we can give them a call but that's not taking an across the board survey of the general feeling amongst the crew. Nothing heard, only silence!
3W
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What would a survey achieve? Also both councils put out communications via AFAP website and emails. Are you not a member of the AFAP?
The level of bull**** coming out of some of you is astounding! If you are junior and having your life ruined by the instabilities of this industry it might be time to look for another career. Not everyone went from flying school to the right hand seat of a Dash 8.
There have and will continue to be, many swings and roundabouts in aviation. Deal with it.
The level of bull**** coming out of some of you is astounding! If you are junior and having your life ruined by the instabilities of this industry it might be time to look for another career. Not everyone went from flying school to the right hand seat of a Dash 8.
There have and will continue to be, many swings and roundabouts in aviation. Deal with it.
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Threewheeler,
A communique was sent out the very next morning from the Feds outlining the lack of information they received from the Company. To those who can't seem to get it - THEY DID NOT KNOW UNTIL THAT MORNING OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT!!
(Sorry for the caps lock). I swear, for a bunch of 'intelligent' people in the roles that you guys perform, some are just outright dumb. The Union has suggested a few things regarding the EOI - I suggest you read that communique.
What would you have the Union do? Jump into hysterics, announcing the sky is falling and we're all ruined? Or a calm, collected approach (I know SSA reps have adopted this approach - and good on 'em ). The Union CAN'T say anything with any clarity about the potential redundancies until the results of the EOI come out which is apparently the 15th Dec.
As Deafstar has already said, swings and roundabouts; ebb and flow - such is the nature of this beast, and we'll never quell it. I've been made redundant before - and it sucks, but we all get up, dust ourselves off, and carry on forward.
...and no, I'm not a Union Rep, just a member.
Fuel-Off
A communique was sent out the very next morning from the Feds outlining the lack of information they received from the Company. To those who can't seem to get it - THEY DID NOT KNOW UNTIL THAT MORNING OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT!!
(Sorry for the caps lock). I swear, for a bunch of 'intelligent' people in the roles that you guys perform, some are just outright dumb. The Union has suggested a few things regarding the EOI - I suggest you read that communique.
What would you have the Union do? Jump into hysterics, announcing the sky is falling and we're all ruined? Or a calm, collected approach (I know SSA reps have adopted this approach - and good on 'em
). The Union CAN'T say anything with any clarity about the potential redundancies until the results of the EOI come out which is apparently the 15th Dec. As Deafstar has already said, swings and roundabouts; ebb and flow - such is the nature of this beast, and we'll never quell it. I've been made redundant before - and it sucks, but we all get up, dust ourselves off, and carry on forward.
...and no, I'm not a Union Rep, just a member.
Fuel-Off
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Threewheeler
In one post you're criticising the union for not putting out a survey and that there's been nothing but silence from them. The next post you're saying that "it takes the AFAP a fortnight to expel gas".
There were fairly detailed communiques from the AFAP to both EAA and SSA groups on the 27th. (three days before your "nothing but silence" post).
It is not possible for a union to create a meaningful survey, distribute it to the pilot groups, get significant feedback, and then analyse that feedback to formulate a measured response to the company within a week. Particularly since there are so many unknowns relating to the details of the changes.
So what an adult would do is to contact the union and/or pilot reps and voice their concerns so that they can be answered by the company when the reps go to meet them (today for EAA and tomorrow for SSA).
DIVOSH!
In one post you're criticising the union for not putting out a survey and that there's been nothing but silence from them. The next post you're saying that "it takes the AFAP a fortnight to expel gas".
There were fairly detailed communiques from the AFAP to both EAA and SSA groups on the 27th. (three days before your "nothing but silence" post).
It is not possible for a union to create a meaningful survey, distribute it to the pilot groups, get significant feedback, and then analyse that feedback to formulate a measured response to the company within a week. Particularly since there are so many unknowns relating to the details of the changes.
So what an adult would do is to contact the union and/or pilot reps and voice their concerns so that they can be answered by the company when the reps go to meet them (today for EAA and tomorrow for SSA).
DIVOSH!