X-Ray Vision in Perth?
The tower is reporting an RVR from a transmissometer situated next to the runway
Welcome to Australia and its third-world aviation infrastructure. Actually, come to think of it, some so-called third-world airports are better equipped than Australia's!
Last edited by BuzzBox; 22nd Jun 2014 at 14:14.
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X-Ray Vision in Perth?
Having worked for two companies that had approach ban points (imposed by regulation), I think they are of questionable value.
In the case of CAT2/3, sure, but CAT 1 and non precision it is ridiculous. The pilot is in a better position to judge visibility in an environment that can change rapidly.
I have had VIS reports of 2000m when the runway is clearly in sight from 10nm.
In the case of CAT2/3, sure, but CAT 1 and non precision it is ridiculous. The pilot is in a better position to judge visibility in an environment that can change rapidly.
I have had VIS reports of 2000m when the runway is clearly in sight from 10nm.
Sadly it's a very West Aussie thing to bring others down like this. There's quite a small-man, envy thing in the culture over there. You see it on the roads and in the opinions. Nothing better to do over there, I suppose.
The reality is that the airport needs to get it act together. Simply not good enough.
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the reality is that Perth is like flying to Christmas Island or Lord Howe Island.
it is a very remote airfield.
the greatest single safety improvement that could be made in Australian aviation is to put a CAT3 instrument landing system at Perth airport.
when perth gets clagged in the consequences can be dreadful.
alternate airfields are Kalgoorlie, Adelaide in South Australia and Exmouth almost the same distance away.
the original poster is actually bang on the money.
one day the pushing of minimas will surely have fatal consequences.
a CAT3 ILS would remove all of those dangers.
btw my nipper who flies jets into perth on a regular basis agrees completely with me on this.
it is a very remote airfield.
the greatest single safety improvement that could be made in Australian aviation is to put a CAT3 instrument landing system at Perth airport.
when perth gets clagged in the consequences can be dreadful.
alternate airfields are Kalgoorlie, Adelaide in South Australia and Exmouth almost the same distance away.
the original poster is actually bang on the money.
one day the pushing of minimas will surely have fatal consequences.
a CAT3 ILS would remove all of those dangers.
btw my nipper who flies jets into perth on a regular basis agrees completely with me on this.
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on one of my control system courses the guys buttonholed me for an opinion.
"you're a pilot, how do they make a landing into geraldton with absolutely no forward visibility?"
I had to bite my lip and make no comment.
during his GA time the nipper also worked for the company and described to me the company expectation that he would land a charter aircraft full of passengers in zero visibility.
he was well skilled in instrument flying and while the hairs were up on the back of the neck lack of fuel caused him to follow company expectations.
....until the next run in clear weather he realised that he had only just missed a tower.
he quit after that flight.
the problem here is not that the company is at fault (well it is but it isn't) but that australian aviation has been so stupidly developed by our government that basic infrastructure that would make it safe has never been installed.
the guys in the peanut gallery are merely asking how they land when they can't see.
they don't know, shall we say, how much a pilot needs to be confident of his abilities at times.
I know the situation is crap and watching a moron like McCormic does nothing for my blood pressure. it could so easily be fixed.
"you're a pilot, how do they make a landing into geraldton with absolutely no forward visibility?"
I had to bite my lip and make no comment.
during his GA time the nipper also worked for the company and described to me the company expectation that he would land a charter aircraft full of passengers in zero visibility.
he was well skilled in instrument flying and while the hairs were up on the back of the neck lack of fuel caused him to follow company expectations.
....until the next run in clear weather he realised that he had only just missed a tower.
he quit after that flight.
the problem here is not that the company is at fault (well it is but it isn't) but that australian aviation has been so stupidly developed by our government that basic infrastructure that would make it safe has never been installed.
the guys in the peanut gallery are merely asking how they land when they can't see.
they don't know, shall we say, how much a pilot needs to be confident of his abilities at times.
I know the situation is crap and watching a moron like McCormic does nothing for my blood pressure. it could so easily be fixed.
Really?
What infrastructure would you like installed in Geraldton then? CAT3B perhaps!! We all know that's not cost effective so we have worlds best practice at those type of Airfields.
We are no better or worse than any other place in the World except for maybe Perth international which should have CAT3B due to its remote location at rotten wx.
What infrastructure would you like installed in Geraldton then? CAT3B perhaps!! We all know that's not cost effective so we have worlds best practice at those type of Airfields.
We are no better or worse than any other place in the World except for maybe Perth international which should have CAT3B due to its remote location at rotten wx.
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Damn straight.
Eclan # 70 –"This thread does begin to make a little sense when one realises, like I did belatedly, that the argument was started and carried by peanut throwers in the gallery.
This reads exactly like GA wannabes who have an issue with jets or airlines or the eastern states or Perth airport or whatever, take your pic, and I've seen all of the above exhibited there!! And these silly claims about pilots flying below minimas while still in IMC in fog - that is really amateur."
This reads exactly like GA wannabes who have an issue with jets or airlines or the eastern states or Perth airport or whatever, take your pic, and I've seen all of the above exhibited there!! And these silly claims about pilots flying below minimas while still in IMC in fog - that is really amateur."
during his GA time the nipper also worked for the company and described to me the company expectation that he would land a charter aircraft full of passengers in zero visibility.
he was well skilled in instrument flying and while the hairs were up on the back of the neck lack of fuel caused him to follow company expectations.....
until the next run in clear weather he realised that he had only just missed a tower. he quit after that flight
May I suggest engage brain before opening mouth or; better, try making the command decisions, have the skill, do the training and pass the checks required which allow you to put many lives, safely on the dot in low visibility at a remote airfield; lets know how you get on.
Steam off. Sorry folks, don't know, it just gets to me sometimes.
That is complete and utter bollocks, Neville. Are you suggesting it is now operational policy in "many airlines" to bust minima??? Are you serious? That would be one of the more weird things I've read here.
Please have a read of the comments regarding fluctuations of visibility in fog and see if this would explain what you are putting down as criminal negligence by PICs or airline management.
Please have a read of the comments regarding fluctuations of visibility in fog and see if this would explain what you are putting down as criminal negligence by PICs or airline management.
Personally witnessed three events which were pretty blatant. Heard a few others on the radio in the hold which certainly raised an eyebrow, but without being at the holding point you could never say what they really saw.
Originally Posted by Eclan
Are you suggesting it is now operational policy in "many airlines" to bust minima???
A Cat 3B ILS would certainly be a major improvement at Perth, but it only solves part of the problem. The other problem is the lack of a decent alternate within a reasonable distance from Perth.
Although LVO would allow most jet aircraft to land and facilitate fewer diversions, the airlines would still be required to carry fuel for an alternate. As things stand, the nearest alternates some international carriers can plan are Adelaide or Bali. That means a lot of extra fuel has to be carried by the time we take alternate and ETOPS fuel considerations into account. If we have to plan Adelaide as our alternate, with Darwin and Adelaide as the ETOPS alternates, then we will land in Perth with around 25 tonnes of fuel (A330). That seriously reduces the revenue payload we can carry and it also costs a heck of a lot just to carry the extra fuel.
The best solution would be to upgrade Kalgoorlie or Learmonth with decent parking facilities and RFF, but I doubt anyone wants to pay.
Although LVO would allow most jet aircraft to land and facilitate fewer diversions, the airlines would still be required to carry fuel for an alternate. As things stand, the nearest alternates some international carriers can plan are Adelaide or Bali. That means a lot of extra fuel has to be carried by the time we take alternate and ETOPS fuel considerations into account. If we have to plan Adelaide as our alternate, with Darwin and Adelaide as the ETOPS alternates, then we will land in Perth with around 25 tonnes of fuel (A330). That seriously reduces the revenue payload we can carry and it also costs a heck of a lot just to carry the extra fuel.
The best solution would be to upgrade Kalgoorlie or Learmonth with decent parking facilities and RFF, but I doubt anyone wants to pay.
2/3 of a lifetime ago I regularly used to operate into Melbourne in the middle of the night. It was well known then that if there was fog in Melbourne, runway 27 afforded you the best chance to get in. Not sure why, but experience had proved it to be true.
Fast-forward a few years and there I was sitting at the threshold of 27 with 2 or 3 runway lights in view. I had to wait a while as it was below the take-off minima. Meanwhile, 3 jets from a couple of our northerly neighbours, managed to land on runway 16 whilst the 'locals' held or diverted or both.
My, how the weather patterns around 'Tulla' must have changed in those few years!
A comparison of various airline's diversion rates due to low vis at Australian ports would be interesting.
Fast-forward a few years and there I was sitting at the threshold of 27 with 2 or 3 runway lights in view. I had to wait a while as it was below the take-off minima. Meanwhile, 3 jets from a couple of our northerly neighbours, managed to land on runway 16 whilst the 'locals' held or diverted or both.
My, how the weather patterns around 'Tulla' must have changed in those few years!
A comparison of various airline's diversion rates due to low vis at Australian ports would be interesting.
The best solution would be to upgrade Kalgoorlie or Learmonth with decent parking facilities and RFF, but I doubt anyone wants to pay.
I think KG would be a bridge too far; too many flights would want to go there. The place would have to be twice the size.
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Could I be the devils advocate here. Why not be proactive and think forward. Aircraft will only get more advanced as will our navigation techniques. Why not upgrade the aircraft and put in RNP approaches? Sure you will still need HIAL, but runway lights won't ever become redundant!
Ground based aids are a thing of the past unfortunately.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.
Ground based aids are a thing of the past unfortunately.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong here.
Why not upgrade the aircraft and put in RNP approaches?
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Ok, well how about we used tried and tested methods.......
File:IWM-CH-15271-FIDO-Lancaster-Gravely.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And replace with......
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bradthomas/5567532382/
File:IWM-CH-15271-FIDO-Lancaster-Gravely.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And replace with......
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bradthomas/5567532382/