Pilot-less Airliners
Join Date: Dec 2007
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It'll never happen.........
It's just ridiculous, it'll never happen.
What's next, someone will suggest that we'll be flying non-stop between Sydney and London, without an engineer, a flight engineer, a navigator or even a radio operator!
Are you seriously suggesting that the Kangaroo Route can be done without overnight stopovers in Singapore and Cairo?
And with just TWO pilots? Be serious!
Meanwhile, back in the real world..
All of the above would have seemed the realm of fantasy 60 years ago yet it happens daily, OK, with one hop but you'll recall Qantas did do a direct flight as a proof of concept a few years ago.
Driverless cars are just around the corner and our grandchildren will think of cars having drivers as a rather quaint old-time thing, hey look at that old car, it's got a steering wheel!
That generation and their children will readily accept pilotless planes as we do not having a man walk in front of our cars waving a red flag!
ST
What's next, someone will suggest that we'll be flying non-stop between Sydney and London, without an engineer, a flight engineer, a navigator or even a radio operator!
Are you seriously suggesting that the Kangaroo Route can be done without overnight stopovers in Singapore and Cairo?
And with just TWO pilots? Be serious!
Meanwhile, back in the real world..
All of the above would have seemed the realm of fantasy 60 years ago yet it happens daily, OK, with one hop but you'll recall Qantas did do a direct flight as a proof of concept a few years ago.
Driverless cars are just around the corner and our grandchildren will think of cars having drivers as a rather quaint old-time thing, hey look at that old car, it's got a steering wheel!
That generation and their children will readily accept pilotless planes as we do not having a man walk in front of our cars waving a red flag!
ST
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Driverless cars may be just around the corner, but the first time a driverless car runs down a pedestrian the courts will be so full of lawyers you won't be able to breathe. It would also require that cars receive aircraft standards of maintenance and certification, no chance of running a ten year old banger. Driverless train technology has been around for decades and yet every high speed rail line still has drivers. If aircraft were to be remotely piloted how long would it be before someone hacked into the system and crashed it?
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I believe the Israelis are flying modified pilot-less biz jets for special missions for some time now.
In fact operated one into one of the busiest airports in the world just the other day.
I see no problem with an airliner being automated.
When was the last time anyone flew the aircraft themselves, with out a/t, a/p, a/l and a/b?
I would have no problem with a pilot-less a/c.
I had a friend enter a cockpit the other month this very topic came up, the cheeky guy turned around and said where is the auto fix button?
I love automation
In fact operated one into one of the busiest airports in the world just the other day.
I see no problem with an airliner being automated.
When was the last time anyone flew the aircraft themselves, with out a/t, a/p, a/l and a/b?
I would have no problem with a pilot-less a/c.
I had a friend enter a cockpit the other month this very topic came up, the cheeky guy turned around and said where is the auto fix button?
I love automation
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Plasticmerc... Sez hoo? Pilotless biz jet?
People underestimate the complexity of the challenge to do this. Google recently stated we wouldn't be seeing large scale availability of driverless cars till at least 2025 due to this factor. While pilots may consider many of their flights routine, we underestimate the subconscious use of our imbedded experience to make constant safety related decisions through the entire duration of even a routine flight. It is not just weather avoidance.
None of the new airliners such as the A350 have this technology as part of their future proofing and the certification process to retrofit the technology would be long and costly.
No one has ever explained to me how an automated system would ensure that a takeoff in icing conditions had all the boxes ticked
People underestimate the complexity of the challenge to do this. Google recently stated we wouldn't be seeing large scale availability of driverless cars till at least 2025 due to this factor. While pilots may consider many of their flights routine, we underestimate the subconscious use of our imbedded experience to make constant safety related decisions through the entire duration of even a routine flight. It is not just weather avoidance.
None of the new airliners such as the A350 have this technology as part of their future proofing and the certification process to retrofit the technology would be long and costly.
No one has ever explained to me how an automated system would ensure that a takeoff in icing conditions had all the boxes ticked
The reason we won't see driver-less cars for a while is probably similar to why, in Singapore, the underground trains are largely driver-less, however, on lines that run above ground, a driver is required...to handle the vagaries of weather, people jumping onto the line etc
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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It all comes down to SECURITY.
This subject gets done to death about four times a year!
The answer is simple, when you can 100% guarantee that the system is totally safe from terrorists who might physically take over a remote ground control station, or hack into the system with more powerful transmitters, then you may get your pilotless airliner, always assuming you can get someone to fund the R & D and you can find insurance underwriters who are prepared to insure such aircraft, passengers and third party liabilities.
Similarly with driverless cars, can you get them insured? Also, don't forget every single road sign and traffic light will have to have it's own transmitter as optical recognition won't work when the driverless vehicle is stuck behind a truck!
The answer is simple, when you can 100% guarantee that the system is totally safe from terrorists who might physically take over a remote ground control station, or hack into the system with more powerful transmitters, then you may get your pilotless airliner, always assuming you can get someone to fund the R & D and you can find insurance underwriters who are prepared to insure such aircraft, passengers and third party liabilities.
Similarly with driverless cars, can you get them insured? Also, don't forget every single road sign and traffic light will have to have it's own transmitter as optical recognition won't work when the driverless vehicle is stuck behind a truck!
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we also know the pilots get paid to fly the aeroplane when the computer breaks. And the computer will always break, sooner or later.
Let's have a look at the Asiana crash, and Air France 447 and so on... if pilots had not touch the flight controls, no accident would have happened.
The last one, Lionnair, who burst tires on landing...
Pilots, nowadays do not have good skills. They push buttons, and when something wrong happen, they feel lost and unaware of the situation.
Why do you think they put 19 y/o in shiny jet now ? It's simple, because the job has become a "simple" job for young boys who barely understand principle of flights.
It's just a matter of time. Pilotless aircraft does not mean 0% pilot. It just means that later on, one guy could control several planes from a center on ground.
Now it's expensive though. But be aware that the day, it will cost cheaper, the industry will not hesitate to make it true.
An airline does not hire pilots for dreaming boys and to make them pleased. It's because arilines have no choice....
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The legal, industrial, and system integration aspects will catch up to the technological capability eventually. There will always be 'pilots', they just won't be looking out the front window of the aircraft.
Greenlights
In reference to the AF447 accident, “Horses**t”. You clearly haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. The icing up of all the probes resulted in the auto pilot automatically disconnecting. Without reliable information from the FMGEC’s they can’t perform their task. What happened after that is the direct result of poor training and poor training is a direct result of every airline trying to cut costs to the bone.
If this is the case generally, why is that? It certainly the case in your part of the world where it has been common practice for a few years now to put kids with f**k all experience into the right hand seat of B737’s and A320’s and dumbing down the level of experience in the cockpit as a whole. After all you can pay a pilot a lot less if they are green behind the ears.
Might be the case for your pimply faced 19 year old but for an experienced crew with the proper training you are again talking horses**t.
Again “HORSES**T”. Airlines particularly in Europe where they have even stooped as low as making these 19 year olds pay them to fly, it’s all about a cost cutting. Accountants are running airlines these days and they are dictating what experience levels they want in the flight deck. They have no idea of the capabilities of automation when serious malfunctions occur and those that do know in flight Ops management aren’t going to say anything because of all the bonuses to be had with all the cost cutting. It’s all about greed.
Spoken like a true management troll or "self loading freight" with no f**king idea.
In reference to the AF447 accident, “Horses**t”. You clearly haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. The icing up of all the probes resulted in the auto pilot automatically disconnecting. Without reliable information from the FMGEC’s they can’t perform their task. What happened after that is the direct result of poor training and poor training is a direct result of every airline trying to cut costs to the bone.
Pilots, nowadays do not have good skills.
They push buttons, and when something wrong happen, they feel lost and unaware of the situation.
Why do you think they put 19 y/o in shiny jet now ? It's simple, because the job has become a "simple" job for young boys who barely understand principle of flights.
Now it's expensive though. But be aware that the day, it will cost cheaper, the industry will not hesitate to make it true.
An airline does not hire pilots for dreaming boys and to make them pleased. It's because arilines have no choice....
An airline does not hire pilots for dreaming boys and to make them pleased. It's because arilines have no choice....
^
"Now it's expensive though. But be aware that the day, it will cost cheaper, the industry will not hesitate to make it true.
An airline does not hire pilots for dreaming boys and to make them pleased. It's because arilines have no choice...."
Actually they hire pilots because they are the cheapest option and will continue to be for a very long time.
"Now it's expensive though. But be aware that the day, it will cost cheaper, the industry will not hesitate to make it true.
An airline does not hire pilots for dreaming boys and to make them pleased. It's because arilines have no choice...."
Actually they hire pilots because they are the cheapest option and will continue to be for a very long time.
Join Date: May 2002
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Lancer
"they just won't be looking out the front window of the aircraft." That's rich.
Half of them don't even look out of the window now.
The first rule of airmanship is lookout. Yet you get these sausage factory churn outs from, shall we say developing countries mostly, who cover the windows up because they don't like the sun. Pigmentation "problems".
Greenlights
So true.
"they just won't be looking out the front window of the aircraft." That's rich.
Half of them don't even look out of the window now.
The first rule of airmanship is lookout. Yet you get these sausage factory churn outs from, shall we say developing countries mostly, who cover the windows up because they don't like the sun. Pigmentation "problems".
Greenlights
So true.
doubleu-anker
If you think what Greenlights has to say is so true then I'm sorry your just as big a dill as he is. Management of airlines will have you and the hoards of the great unwashed believe that this job is easy and a 19 year old could do it but their motives lie in cost reduction at all cost and the size of their bonus. If you think automation is the key to reducing the experience level on the flight deck then you need to have a serious talk to the crews of QF32, US1549 and CX780.
If you think what Greenlights has to say is so true then I'm sorry your just as big a dill as he is. Management of airlines will have you and the hoards of the great unwashed believe that this job is easy and a 19 year old could do it but their motives lie in cost reduction at all cost and the size of their bonus. If you think automation is the key to reducing the experience level on the flight deck then you need to have a serious talk to the crews of QF32, US1549 and CX780.
QF 001 was conspicuous by it's absence.
Funny that after the accident QF went and changed all the operational procedures back to what the manufacturer specified!
Computers wouldn't have handled UA 232, DHL in Baghdad or the 737 Autothrottle issues either.
doubleu-anker
You and I could sit here all day and list all the accidents that were caused by human error. What you can’t do though is list a single flight that was saved after a serious malfunction because of automation.
You and I could sit here all day and list all the accidents that were caused by human error. What you can’t do though is list a single flight that was saved after a serious malfunction because of automation.
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Nevile
Correct. What troubles me the most with 01, is not QF trying to reinvent the wheel, or going against the manufactures recommendation and common sense, or even forgetting they didn't build the aircraft. As you said Boeing did.
That the pilots went along with it!! Blind adherence to SOP's.I would have told them to get stuffed and let common sense prevail on a wet runway.
404
"What you can’t do though is list a single flight that was saved after a serious malfunction because of automation."
I can actually. Let's go back to the first flight and all subsequent flights by drones. The pilot wasn't incapacitated, it was worse as there was no pilot!! A serious malfunction if ever there was one. But wait, the day was saved by automation!
Correct. What troubles me the most with 01, is not QF trying to reinvent the wheel, or going against the manufactures recommendation and common sense, or even forgetting they didn't build the aircraft. As you said Boeing did.
That the pilots went along with it!! Blind adherence to SOP's.I would have told them to get stuffed and let common sense prevail on a wet runway.
404
"What you can’t do though is list a single flight that was saved after a serious malfunction because of automation."
I can actually. Let's go back to the first flight and all subsequent flights by drones. The pilot wasn't incapacitated, it was worse as there was no pilot!! A serious malfunction if ever there was one. But wait, the day was saved by automation!
doubleu-anker
You should be a politician or even better airline management. You waffle on with drivel and don’t answer the question. The reality is that the US Air Force, the largest operator of drones in the world acknowledges that their drones have an accident rate three times higher than all the other aircraft in their fleet.
Drones Most Accident-Prone U.S. Air Force Craft
I want you to list for us one commercial airline flight that had a serious malfunction and was saved by automation rather than the pilot.
I can actually. Let's go back to the first flight and all subsequent flights by drones. The pilot wasn't incapacitated, it was worse as there was no pilot!! A serious malfunction if ever there was one. But wait, the day was saved by automation!
Drones Most Accident-Prone U.S. Air Force Craft
I want you to list for us one commercial airline flight that had a serious malfunction and was saved by automation rather than the pilot.
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Seriously?
Drones? Are you at all serious or are you a troll? Drones, in case you didn't know, don't carry up to 300 people at a time. And if they crash, no one gives a big steaming pile of dog waste, precisely as there was not 1 POB.
Given just a few of the above examples, and not reverting to a ludicrous comment about drones, enlighten us all about how automation has ever saved the day? QF001 was human error, it happens unfortunately, but when the automation cocks up and if the pilots had not saved the day then how many more crashes would there have been? A great many.
And I could not agree more with 404's post regarding Greenlights rubbish. I, as a professional pilot, just cannot see, with all the myriad challenges faced every day, how an airplane with no pilots could manage in a busy, weather affected airport, as one small example. There are so many variables we deal with that vary on every single flight, there is just no way they can all be thought of and catered for.
Nosey
Given just a few of the above examples, and not reverting to a ludicrous comment about drones, enlighten us all about how automation has ever saved the day? QF001 was human error, it happens unfortunately, but when the automation cocks up and if the pilots had not saved the day then how many more crashes would there have been? A great many.
And I could not agree more with 404's post regarding Greenlights rubbish. I, as a professional pilot, just cannot see, with all the myriad challenges faced every day, how an airplane with no pilots could manage in a busy, weather affected airport, as one small example. There are so many variables we deal with that vary on every single flight, there is just no way they can all be thought of and catered for.
Nosey
There are a lot of emotive responses to this theoretical discussion. I think it safe to say that no current pilot will be affected by whatever is over the horizon. The aircraft order books are full for the next eight years...plus a thirty year life span...that's a career right there.
Beyond that, ladies and gentlemen, rest assured that when the time comes you will not get a vote.
Beyond that, ladies and gentlemen, rest assured that when the time comes you will not get a vote.