MERGED: Alan's still not happy......
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“You also need to be honest and say the unions and staff have to accept that the world has changed so we can't go back to the past.”
Very true. One of the key problems going forward for QF will be the continuing unrealistic expectation the wider employee group still clings to.
Look no further than the Pprune thread closed recently entitled “QF staffing”. The poster posed a reasonable question that appeared genuine regarding the costs, work practices and lack of contract labor within QF only to be locked out rather rudely by the Pprune moderator. What chance do we have of rational debate?
Again, QF, like any Australian company is not in the business of providing jobs. The sooner the wider Australian public accepts this the sooner we can push the country back into the global market place.
Very true. One of the key problems going forward for QF will be the continuing unrealistic expectation the wider employee group still clings to.
Look no further than the Pprune thread closed recently entitled “QF staffing”. The poster posed a reasonable question that appeared genuine regarding the costs, work practices and lack of contract labor within QF only to be locked out rather rudely by the Pprune moderator. What chance do we have of rational debate?
Again, QF, like any Australian company is not in the business of providing jobs. The sooner the wider Australian public accepts this the sooner we can push the country back into the global market place.
Professor:
Qantas front line staff ARE INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE and have been for decades.
You will always find weird contractual exceptions, but they exist in every airline because of the complexity of rostering vs legal requirements.
No Qantas staff member (except the very top end) believes that Qf is in the business of providing jobs, but the impost of your comment is that Qf staff are not competitive, and that is absolute drivel and simply a regurgitation of spin from corporate liars.
And I say that as an employer in my non-Qantas life. Your comments are absolutely spot on in relation to my employees ($60 per hour with a skill set of being able to spread Flora on a piece of bread just one example) but show a stunning lack of understanding of what Qantas staff actually do in relation to their peers overseas.
Qantas front line staff ARE INTERNATIONALLY COMPETITIVE and have been for decades.
You will always find weird contractual exceptions, but they exist in every airline because of the complexity of rostering vs legal requirements.
No Qantas staff member (except the very top end) believes that Qf is in the business of providing jobs, but the impost of your comment is that Qf staff are not competitive, and that is absolute drivel and simply a regurgitation of spin from corporate liars.
And I say that as an employer in my non-Qantas life. Your comments are absolutely spot on in relation to my employees ($60 per hour with a skill set of being able to spread Flora on a piece of bread just one example) but show a stunning lack of understanding of what Qantas staff actually do in relation to their peers overseas.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That evening, at the annual dinner for the conservative HR Nicholls Society........a quote from V-Jets previous post.
This 'society' is the Liberal Party.
The HR Nicholls Society
This 'society' is the Liberal Party.
The HR Nicholls Society
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: australia
Age: 59
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long does Al have left?
I think that we have a clue to the shelf live of the Irishman. Demetriou has just announced he is stepping down from the AFL. Naturally this has nothing to do with supplements scandal and circus that ensued out of his control, disastrous for a control freak. It has taken a year for his impending departure.
This would indicate that Joyce will be tearfully leaving QF next year, detailing his extraordinary number of achievements as CEO. These would include new destinations, jetstar expansion into Asian bases and reduction of staff numbers in Australia. This speech will not include ports closed down internationally, setup costs for jetstar overseas bases and their accumulated losses not the number of jobs lost to Australia with transfer of engineering and flight attendant jobs to foreigners. He won't mention the 457 workers already here in coward street that took Australian jobs.
Further to jetstar overseas bases, an equities analyst at Macquarie Bank estimated a sale price of $400m. When setup costs and accumulated losses (this doesn't include huge losses on 320s currently sitting on their arses) are totalled this will be a huge cockup, er loss to the group. Just how many more 320s are to be delivered or parked for Hong Kong and Japan? The only positive here is that that these new planes, along with retirement of 767s and 747s will enable him to claim a significant reduction in fleet age and that he has set up qantas so that it will not require any maintenance for the next 5 years!
This would indicate that Joyce will be tearfully leaving QF next year, detailing his extraordinary number of achievements as CEO. These would include new destinations, jetstar expansion into Asian bases and reduction of staff numbers in Australia. This speech will not include ports closed down internationally, setup costs for jetstar overseas bases and their accumulated losses not the number of jobs lost to Australia with transfer of engineering and flight attendant jobs to foreigners. He won't mention the 457 workers already here in coward street that took Australian jobs.
Further to jetstar overseas bases, an equities analyst at Macquarie Bank estimated a sale price of $400m. When setup costs and accumulated losses (this doesn't include huge losses on 320s currently sitting on their arses) are totalled this will be a huge cockup, er loss to the group. Just how many more 320s are to be delivered or parked for Hong Kong and Japan? The only positive here is that that these new planes, along with retirement of 767s and 747s will enable him to claim a significant reduction in fleet age and that he has set up qantas so that it will not require any maintenance for the next 5 years!
"You can't have spare fleet waiting around to be used on days when bookings don't justify a larger plane. The economics don't allow it."
1A...with the utmost respect. Could you please pass on this piece of economic COMMON SENSE to the little chap running the "Qantas Group" re.. his Asian fiasco!!!
McHale.
1A...with the utmost respect. Could you please pass on this piece of economic COMMON SENSE to the little chap running the "Qantas Group" re.. his Asian fiasco!!!
McHale.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fairly clear statement of support from the Chairman who has been quiet to date
Government policy must change to create a level playing field for Qantas
Government policy must change to create a level playing field for Qantas
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Essential Service......
How many times did the Prime Minister use the term 'essential service' in his speech this morning?
Lots......
Lets not spoil the fun and surprise now. Doh......
Lots......
Lets not spoil the fun and surprise now. Doh......
Last edited by Acute Instinct; 3rd Mar 2014 at 01:41.
Thread Starter
Leigh may want to explain the Jetstar Asia train wreck and the massive drain on QF as part of this strategy he talks about.
You just simply cannot borrow money to fund aircraft to park them. It is suicide.
Staff cost pail into insignificance when put against aircraft leasing cost of grounded aircraft because of the incompetence of the management. And it is simply that, incompetence.
You just simply cannot borrow money to fund aircraft to park them. It is suicide.
Staff cost pail into insignificance when put against aircraft leasing cost of grounded aircraft because of the incompetence of the management. And it is simply that, incompetence.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree the current situation with JHK and JJ is ugly, but I equally think it is pretty tough to blame management for JHK approvals taking >24 months when your shareholding structure is more Chinese (China & HK) than CX.
That said with QF domestics first 738s now 12 yo (think 15 were delivered in 2002 post AAs 9/11 cancellations), I would not be surprised to see some A320s with red tails in the coming years.
The only questions is who they will be operated by.
That said with QF domestics first 738s now 12 yo (think 15 were delivered in 2002 post AAs 9/11 cancellations), I would not be surprised to see some A320s with red tails in the coming years.
The only questions is who they will be operated by.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look no further than the PPRuNe thread closed recently entitled “QF staffing”. The poster posed a reasonable question that appeared genuine regarding the costs, work practices and lack of contract labor within QF only to be locked out rather rudely by the PPRuNe moderator. What chance do we have of rational debate?
The poster was deemed a "troll" by the moderator and if you were to look at that person's previous posts, you may see why.
Additionally, it's seems there is a continued belief that the unions are somehow responsible for all of the problems in Qantas and the board are blameless.
The reality is that, in time, employee EBA's evolve to better fit the business model and circumstances, and this is done by agreement through the unions. The unions are representing the wishes of the workforce, so if a sound and sensible proposal is put to the employees via the unions, then progress to a better outcome for all is made.
There is also a lack of understanding about the rates of pay and what they represent. Comparison to the automotive or other industries is plainly dumb.
Pilots and engineers, for instance, are paid for RESPONSIBILITY and skill sets unlike any other industry, and to risk harping on the point, when things go wrong in the sky or a catastrophe is prevented by professional oversight on the ground, the payment for that responsibility is justified. Put yourself in the place of a passenger experiencing an in flight emergency and think about how much it's worth to have a pilot up front that has been trained to deal with it effectively to return the aircraft to the ground safely.
The competition in airlines today means running the operations as lean as practical while ensuring SAFETY, and multi layered management needs to be replaced with multi tasked management . Some airline managements are even prepared to compromise on safety to run even leaner and THAT can only end in disaster.
Airlines that are prepared to take risks with passengers lives to save money should not be in business.
The argument for contract labour is debatable, however, it's my view that this should only occur as overflow. Employment security by being permanent aids in keeping the best staff.
Agree the current situation with JHK and JJ is ugly, but I equally think it is pretty tough to blame management for JHK approvals taking >24 months when your shareholding structure is more Chinese (China & HK) than CX.
Or anywhere in Asia. Come in spinner! Alan Joyce isn't just 'You only get one Alan Bond in a lifetime' - he is trying to be Alan Bond EVERYWHERE!
When you go out and buy a house, do you get your finance in place first, or do you turn up at an Auction, outbid everyone and just ask the bank for $1m on Monday? Even better, just imagine the bank is owned by the Vendor (China in this case) who knows that not only will you lose the 10% deposit but they can sell the house again if they don't lend you the money, and also pocket the 10%?
And it (Jetstar XXXX or MMLLLXXVII Pillar Plan) hasn't just failed once or twice, but demonstrably hasn't succeeded at all!!
The man is mad! I just don't understand why anyone supports him.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney, NSW,Australia
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice analogy V-Jet, the only part that you left out is that on the
Friday preceding the weekend Auction, you hold a press conference
and announce that You are going to be the successful bidder.
Friday preceding the weekend Auction, you hold a press conference
and announce that You are going to be the successful bidder.
"Aero" I 2nd that
The way I look at it is that the T&C's are thrashed out in an EBA bargaining round table & if the Airline can't afford at least a CPI increase which is all anyone can expect these days then they shouldn't be in the flying game.
Using wages claims as the reason or one of the big ticket item to failure then QF for Eg has a much bigger underlying problem within & even someone that just dropped out of the sky yesterday would know what or who is the main problem here!
Wmk2
The way I look at it is that the T&C's are thrashed out in an EBA bargaining round table & if the Airline can't afford at least a CPI increase which is all anyone can expect these days then they shouldn't be in the flying game.
Using wages claims as the reason or one of the big ticket item to failure then QF for Eg has a much bigger underlying problem within & even someone that just dropped out of the sky yesterday would know what or who is the main problem here!
Wmk2
Good analogy V-Jet, the Chinese have been stitching up greedy and gullible Western businessmen since at least as early as 1935 when my father first watched them in action. By his count there have been Five of these booms since then. Anyone remember about Ten years ago it was all about the "Asian TIger Economies"? Then Ireland was christened "The Celtic TIger economy"?
These are all good stories but the reality is that most of the writing about them in the financial press is what my old corporate strategy lecturer termed "business pornography". So Geoff Dixon and Alan Joyce saw the Chinese metaphorically wriggling their backside, flashing a bit of tit and whispering about "multi million dollar markets" and they got a hard on.
Just like tarts of old, "just a few dollars more baby!". "Just wait a little longer baby and buy me another drink" and when the money is gone out wil come the bouncer and they are in the back lane: broke, half drunk and totally unsatisified.
If I were a good Chinese businessman, I would be thinking how I can get my hands on those A320's. Perhaps Alans only saving grace so far is that the unused aircraft are NOT on the ground in China, because when the time comes to lower the boom on the Qantas Asian adventure you can bet your life that a commercial dispute will be manufactured and any aircraft available will be arrested and grounded - held hostage if you like, untill the last cent is judged by the Chinese to have been wrung out of QF.
Here's a thought for Alan; just how much are you up for if your Asian ventures fall in a heap? Is it even possible to cance these AOC applications and dissolve partnerships without penalty? My guess would be no, and that also begs the question of what happens to all those A320's in that eventuality.
THe only consolation for Alan and the Board is that they follow a long line of Western businesses into bankruptcy from listening to the siren songs of the Middle Kingdom.
These are all good stories but the reality is that most of the writing about them in the financial press is what my old corporate strategy lecturer termed "business pornography". So Geoff Dixon and Alan Joyce saw the Chinese metaphorically wriggling their backside, flashing a bit of tit and whispering about "multi million dollar markets" and they got a hard on.
Just like tarts of old, "just a few dollars more baby!". "Just wait a little longer baby and buy me another drink" and when the money is gone out wil come the bouncer and they are in the back lane: broke, half drunk and totally unsatisified.
If I were a good Chinese businessman, I would be thinking how I can get my hands on those A320's. Perhaps Alans only saving grace so far is that the unused aircraft are NOT on the ground in China, because when the time comes to lower the boom on the Qantas Asian adventure you can bet your life that a commercial dispute will be manufactured and any aircraft available will be arrested and grounded - held hostage if you like, untill the last cent is judged by the Chinese to have been wrung out of QF.
Here's a thought for Alan; just how much are you up for if your Asian ventures fall in a heap? Is it even possible to cance these AOC applications and dissolve partnerships without penalty? My guess would be no, and that also begs the question of what happens to all those A320's in that eventuality.
THe only consolation for Alan and the Board is that they follow a long line of Western businesses into bankruptcy from listening to the siren songs of the Middle Kingdom.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by moa999
Fairly clear statement of support from the Chairman who has been quiet to date
Government policy must change to create a level playing field for Qantas
Government policy must change to create a level playing field for Qantas
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sunfish
Good analogy V-Jet, the Chinese have been stitching up greedy and gullible Western businessmen since at least as early as 1935 when my father first watched them in action. By his count there have been Five of these booms since then. Anyone remember about Ten years ago it was all about the "Asian TIger Economies"? Then Ireland was christened "The Celtic TIger economy"?
Yep, much better post Sunny, and in large part I agree with you. The only way to realistically deal with China is to export to them and ensure goods are paid for before they leave your custody and then you transfer the money immediately out of that account into another at a different bank.
Wanting to do business in China is like winning the toss and thinking about bowling first in cricket. Take your time, think again, and bat first. If you MUST do business with China make sure you control a whole range of inputs and NEVER give away the IP. And I don't just mean putting non disclosure documents etc in place, I really mean do not give it away. Because you can be absolutely certain that you won't be getting any genuine IP coming your way.
And as soon as you get paid repatriate the funds to your home country.
If you become successful split your business into multiple sub businesses with different Chinese partners. Expect to find that you signed documentation transferring your successful business for a nominal sum to your business partners. If that happens don't protest, accept it and move on. Remember that IP you kept? This is when you need it. Restart that business unit from scratch.
China - great opportunities but insane levels of risk.