Truss: Aviation Safety Regulation Review
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
There is a way – section 4C.
HMHB "I reckon we should all write to the new DAS to address those issues that were ignored or brushed under the carpet. That way certain peoples names will be known very quickly.
It's a ludicrous, piss-pottical system cynically designed to foster and promote those who twist, manipulate and make mock of the last hope for a fair hearing under AUD$1,000,000, for the victims.
Nothing to loose by trying. Quadrio, for example would make a perfect overture to the symphony.
Toot-toot...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,529
The Canadian Report? I don't see how it can ever be released for one seriously major reason of national security - the MH17 investigation.
The ATSB is balls deep in the investigation of the MH17 shoot down.
The release of any report criticising the probity of the ATSB in the slightest will be pounced on by Russia.
You can bet that the Americans and Canadians would not like that report to be released.
For better or worse, Dolan is now stuck with being a minor player in a situation that has already led to the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians and might even lead to nuclear war.
I don't think he would be enjoying the intense pressure and scrutiny in the slightest.
To put that another way, from the ComCare sleepy hollow to the world stage under the eye of Sauron?
The ATSB is balls deep in the investigation of the MH17 shoot down.
The release of any report criticising the probity of the ATSB in the slightest will be pounced on by Russia.
You can bet that the Americans and Canadians would not like that report to be released.
For better or worse, Dolan is now stuck with being a minor player in a situation that has already led to the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians and might even lead to nuclear war.
I don't think he would be enjoying the intense pressure and scrutiny in the slightest.
To put that another way, from the ComCare sleepy hollow to the world stage under the eye of Sauron?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Then The Labor Party should get off their collective arse's and put at ease the public and industry concern for national air safety and bring the matter up in The House of representatives and be prepared to loose a motion of no confidence in The Deputy PM and Minister for things that should be flying and are now grounded. That shouldn't impinge on the "national security" bi-partisan excuse. The Press Gallery, should be prepared to report to the public the simple fact that their lives may be at risk because of a dysfunctional and incompetent CAsA and ATSB. Oh, and "dipsy-dozy" Minister.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
It's not sublime – it's ridiculous.
Sunny –"The release of any report criticising the probity of the ATSB in the slightest will be pounced on by Russia."
They have, as we all do a justified faith in Houston and the MSA, but covering the antics of Beaker and tainting the integrity of the fine Canadian TSB is just plain wrong. It would be better to be seen to act; acknowledge the systematic breakdown and look to the national interest first, rather than be seen openly sneaking about the back alleys, trying to cover an open secret.
The only way to stop the sniggering going on in private is to openly admit the problem and rectify it.
Truss is making an international mockery of our Senate, our integrity and restricting our ability to act as a grown up, fully paid up member of the first tier in the aviation hierarchy.
Sunny – "You can bet that the Americans and Canadians would not like that report to be released."
Resign Minister, go sit in the orchestra pit with Albo and the other banjo players. Perhaps you can manage to do that right; with some semblance of honour, piety and probity..
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
VA protest!
Strong rumour is VA met with the CASA Regional Director this week to complain that the regulatory situation was becoming "unworkable". Thats great diplomacy, but kudos to them for having a voice!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 1,238
Bet won..!
Made a bet some months ago that the warren truss of a bridge girder would have more "steel" than Warren Truss the mini-miniscule.
Aviation ...WTF is that??
And so it is. Bridges are go.
If he thought the ASRR would be a CAsA covering rabbit he could pull out of his hat, then he is sadly mistaken. If he even realizes the fact.
Q What do you call a guy with a rabbit lodged in his cheeks?
A. Warren
Snakecharma...betcha cant charm any of the vipers in CAsA..!
Bombed a missive re CAsA (vomit) and the good Senators efforts to PUP.
May peek their interest..you never know. The machinations in CBR can be strange and convoluted.
I fly ...and I vote.
And if that doesnt do any good the revolution must come.
Aviation ...WTF is that??
And so it is. Bridges are go.
If he thought the ASRR would be a CAsA covering rabbit he could pull out of his hat, then he is sadly mistaken. If he even realizes the fact.
Q What do you call a guy with a rabbit lodged in his cheeks?
A. Warren
Snakecharma...betcha cant charm any of the vipers in CAsA..!
Bombed a missive re CAsA (vomit) and the good Senators efforts to PUP.
May peek their interest..you never know. The machinations in CBR can be strange and convoluted.
I fly ...and I vote.
And if that doesnt do any good the revolution must come.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
Truss and sleepiness
Without stating the obvious, how can Truss be in possession of the AAI, ASRR and TSB reports, which each alone ring alarm bells yet all together? Then publicly state that he'll reply by the end of the year!!!! Aviation safety CAN'T be a priority. But I'm sure we'll hear more of that spin in reply. Pathetic!
Sleep on wazza, watch your portfolio die under YOUR control
Sleep on wazza, watch your portfolio die under YOUR control
Last edited by Jinglie; 11th Sep 2014 at 15:03.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 106
really?
The reason Minister Truss has not responded to this report is because the report is indefensible.
It is an inane rant that lacks any semblance of academic probity.
Because the 'industry' said 'it'; 'it' must be correct.
In all my years in this industry (40+) that I will admit has been spent in most places in the world other than the first 15 years or so in Australia, I am still amazed by the the ridiculous attitude of the couple of people who post on here with such conviction.
Grow up. All the predictions of the 'end of GA'; 'Part 166 will result in more aviation accidents at non controlled airfields'; 'Part 66 will end LAMEs'; Part 61 will kill GA (supposed to be 01Sep14 but now extended to the end of 'the year' by those who know on PPRuNe)
Really?
It is an inane rant that lacks any semblance of academic probity.
Because the 'industry' said 'it'; 'it' must be correct.
In all my years in this industry (40+) that I will admit has been spent in most places in the world other than the first 15 years or so in Australia, I am still amazed by the the ridiculous attitude of the couple of people who post on here with such conviction.
Grow up. All the predictions of the 'end of GA'; 'Part 166 will result in more aviation accidents at non controlled airfields'; 'Part 66 will end LAMEs'; Part 61 will kill GA (supposed to be 01Sep14 but now extended to the end of 'the year' by those who know on PPRuNe)
Really?
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
Really concerned!
Actus,
So I assume your happy with the state of play from the minuscule? I'm no doom-sayer, but it's pretty clear that all is not well. Do you disagree with the AAI and ASRR? if so, name the parts. Tea and bicci's with the Sec tomorrow arvo?
So I assume your happy with the state of play from the minuscule? I'm no doom-sayer, but it's pretty clear that all is not well. Do you disagree with the AAI and ASRR? if so, name the parts. Tea and bicci's with the Sec tomorrow arvo?
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
Actus rues or Andre rieus?
Andre,
So who exactly is the author of your comment regarding:
The Senate, including David Fawcett, ex Empire Test Pilot School, or the ASRR with 3 gents with about 100 years combined in the industry at senior levels?
The IOS respect individuals who can better that, with solid opinion. Up to you?
Hooroo
So who exactly is the author of your comment regarding:
It is an inane rant that lacks any semblance of academic probity.
The IOS respect individuals who can better that, with solid opinion. Up to you?
Hooroo
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 106
really?
Jinglie,
This is not a personal issue. The review was supposed to look at all agencies involved in aviation. What about the ATSB report that came out in October 2013 about breakdown in separation events in Australia between 2008 and 2012; what about the inappropriate use on In flight broadcast areas (a third world procedure) that resulted in an 'unknown' Indonesian aircraft 'appearing' in OZ airspace without AsA having any knowledge of it (I seem to recall that was opposite direction, same level as a QF flight), what about Defence totally rejecting the findings re Darwin and other places, what about the countless 'loss of separation assurance' events that AsA has had?
Now, AsA controllers are some of the best in the world; it has not been only their issues. They work in the system that they work in.
But; none of this got into the the 'Forsyth' review.
I guess it is just incidental that Forsyth was the chairman of the AsA board during most of the time when these things were happening?
BTW, who has not been a test pilot?
This is not a personal issue. The review was supposed to look at all agencies involved in aviation. What about the ATSB report that came out in October 2013 about breakdown in separation events in Australia between 2008 and 2012; what about the inappropriate use on In flight broadcast areas (a third world procedure) that resulted in an 'unknown' Indonesian aircraft 'appearing' in OZ airspace without AsA having any knowledge of it (I seem to recall that was opposite direction, same level as a QF flight), what about Defence totally rejecting the findings re Darwin and other places, what about the countless 'loss of separation assurance' events that AsA has had?
Now, AsA controllers are some of the best in the world; it has not been only their issues. They work in the system that they work in.
But; none of this got into the the 'Forsyth' review.
I guess it is just incidental that Forsyth was the chairman of the AsA board during most of the time when these things were happening?
BTW, who has not been a test pilot?
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
You have to be pulling my leg!
Andre,
Violin out already? Don't believe any crap the ATSB produce, they've been found inept. As for ASA, great people doing their jobs. I'm aware of numerous issues where the Indonesian's (Angkasa Pura II) have had to correct ASA clearances.
The Indonesian aircraft was probably because all Australia (ASA) could provide was TIBA for international aircraft. That in itself is so sad it's not funny. I spoke to multitudes or foreign carriers pilots who operated into Australia at the time and the common theme was "like being in a GA training area with all sorts of traffic whilst commanding a 400 seat pax A/C, see-and-avoid basically"
Shall we even bother about WLM? A bigger risk!
Violin out already? Don't believe any crap the ATSB produce, they've been found inept. As for ASA, great people doing their jobs. I'm aware of numerous issues where the Indonesian's (Angkasa Pura II) have had to correct ASA clearances.
The Indonesian aircraft was probably because all Australia (ASA) could provide was TIBA for international aircraft. That in itself is so sad it's not funny. I spoke to multitudes or foreign carriers pilots who operated into Australia at the time and the common theme was "like being in a GA training area with all sorts of traffic whilst commanding a 400 seat pax A/C, see-and-avoid basically"
Shall we even bother about WLM? A bigger risk!
Last edited by Jinglie; 11th Sep 2014 at 17:10.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: No fixed address
Posts: 163
Forsyth
Andre,
The reason Forsyth didn't cover ASA is it was an Aviation Safety REGULATORY Review. ASA is a service provider, not a regulator.
I hear a review of ASA is imminent. There are some prominent people in this country who have strong ties with the FAA and EuroControl.
Get the music and violin going. Lots of smiles
The reason Forsyth didn't cover ASA is it was an Aviation Safety REGULATORY Review. ASA is a service provider, not a regulator.
I hear a review of ASA is imminent. There are some prominent people in this country who have strong ties with the FAA and EuroControl.
Get the music and violin going. Lots of smiles
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
The Repcon system - as a weapon.
It is an inane rant that lacks any semblance of academic probity.
Because the 'industry' said 'it'; 'it' must be correct.
Anyway – no matter; once the cabinet is shuffled; he can simply revert to being irrelevant window dressing, anchoring the Qld votes before shuffling off to the nearest five star nursing home to enjoy his dotage. There to indulge in porridge dribbling, laxatives and boring witless anyone he can corner, with tales of political 'derring do'. Can't come soon enough.
= = = = = = = = = == = =
BRB report:-
Good turn out last night, great ipad video of our 'John and Libby' holding hands and cooing in the front seats of a DHC8 – some people really are very naughty. The happy couple may not be front page of the Telegraph news, but they are a feature of many a ribald comment, two limericks and generally a source of great amusement to the BRB. The –U-bend Tube option was considered but voted down; the 'vision' being enjoyed far too much to share.
Once that ribald episode settled down and the last chuckles dissipated, the first main topic for discussion was what options were available to David Fawcett? Although David Fawcett is enmeshed and constrained by 'party', the consensus was that his patience must just about be exhausted. There is it seems (as we understand it) a mountain of complaint 'paperwork' against CASA, McComic and his happy little band. Too much for one man to deal with, too serious to dismiss and with no clear offer of assistance from the minuscule; a problem.
The unanimous vote went to his calling for a full dress inquiry into the mountain of complaints lodged against CASA, by a frustrated industry with nowhere else to go, but to his front door. As it's not 'his' problem, a call for an inquiry would garner solid bi-partisan support from the committee and could force an inquiry. More to follow we thought...
Item last – REPCON. The BRB were (strangely) once again unanimous. The proposal to send a REPCON to every NAA which has passengers travelling to Australia and using domestic air services was fully supported. The elements of the submission defining that there are some 60 odd, independently identified, deficiencies within the Australian system, which despite industries best efforts, the government have failed or are unwilling to address. The submission recommends that all external NAA initiate an audit process to ensure the safety of their nationals within Australian airspace. Particularly regarding insurance issues.
As it's a 'big' move; the BRB suggested that before PAIN was turned loose and the REPCON generated, a straw pole of opinion from PPRuNe readers should be called for.
So – what say you Ppruners?.. Repcon or repercussions??
Toot toot
Last edited by Kharon; 11th Sep 2014 at 22:51.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,529
Actus Reus your suggestion that criticism of CASA and the regulations is merely froth and bubble is simply wrong. CASA is a monster that is costing Australia jobs, growth and investment in the entire Aviation sector.
Contrary to popular opinion, I am not an "industry insider". My career has been mostly in other fields but with a smattering of Aviation. I perhaps unwisely decided to learn to fly before studying the regulatory landscape, for if I had, I probably would have invested in learning Golf. However despite coming from other fields, including a short stint working for Government and time as a CEO and in various general management positions. I failed to do my due diligence on the regulatory environment because by and large Australian regulations are well written and conscientiously and honestly administered(outside NSW). What I found in aviation simply stank.
When I first started reading the regulations, they didn't pass the smell test. Simple I thought, I'm not holding my mouth right, there must be a magic key to interpreting this minefield that I don't yet have. Well Reus, I still don't have it, and nobody else does either. The regulations are deliberately confusing, imprecise and far more complex than required.
What I then discovered, from a variety of sources, is that the regulations are capriciously applied, as evidenced in the continuing stream of AAT cases, including the case of a man who was stripped of his job and licence on the flimsy basis of a Youtube video.
What I then noticed was the deliberate cruelty and regulatory bastardry as evidenced by the predilection of the regulator to take action on the late afternoon of a Friday or the day before a public holiday, which is the legal equivalent of shoving a turd in someone’s mailbox. CASA is supposed to behave as a model litigant. It doesn't.
To put that another way Reus; what sort of complete arsehole grounds an airline on Christmas Eve?
I will not bore you with further tales of the casual, and perhaps even deliberate cruelty and mismanagement of CASA and its ongoing self serving parasitic destruction of aviation. You are simply wrong.
Contrary to popular opinion, I am not an "industry insider". My career has been mostly in other fields but with a smattering of Aviation. I perhaps unwisely decided to learn to fly before studying the regulatory landscape, for if I had, I probably would have invested in learning Golf. However despite coming from other fields, including a short stint working for Government and time as a CEO and in various general management positions. I failed to do my due diligence on the regulatory environment because by and large Australian regulations are well written and conscientiously and honestly administered(outside NSW). What I found in aviation simply stank.
When I first started reading the regulations, they didn't pass the smell test. Simple I thought, I'm not holding my mouth right, there must be a magic key to interpreting this minefield that I don't yet have. Well Reus, I still don't have it, and nobody else does either. The regulations are deliberately confusing, imprecise and far more complex than required.
What I then discovered, from a variety of sources, is that the regulations are capriciously applied, as evidenced in the continuing stream of AAT cases, including the case of a man who was stripped of his job and licence on the flimsy basis of a Youtube video.
What I then noticed was the deliberate cruelty and regulatory bastardry as evidenced by the predilection of the regulator to take action on the late afternoon of a Friday or the day before a public holiday, which is the legal equivalent of shoving a turd in someone’s mailbox. CASA is supposed to behave as a model litigant. It doesn't.
To put that another way Reus; what sort of complete arsehole grounds an airline on Christmas Eve?
I will not bore you with further tales of the casual, and perhaps even deliberate cruelty and mismanagement of CASA and its ongoing self serving parasitic destruction of aviation. You are simply wrong.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
actus reus
Interesting handle. May have relevance in precedent to our own regulators who appear to have left the gate open;
Pittwood R v Wright J:
[Murder – the actus reus of - omissions- duty under a contract]
D was a level crossing keeper who negligently left open the crossing gate. This led to the death of a carter whose cart was struck by a train.
Held: D had a duty (arising from his contract of employment) to shut the gate, and although this duty was owed to his employers rather than to the public at large, it was enough that his negligent failure to act could lead to conviction.
Guilty of manslaughter
Pittwood R v Wright J:
[Murder – the actus reus of - omissions- duty under a contract]
D was a level crossing keeper who negligently left open the crossing gate. This led to the death of a carter whose cart was struck by a train.
Held: D had a duty (arising from his contract of employment) to shut the gate, and although this duty was owed to his employers rather than to the public at large, it was enough that his negligent failure to act could lead to conviction.
Guilty of manslaughter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Go west young man
Posts: 1,732
REPCON & Cabinet reshuffle rumour??
Kharon - Anyway – no matter; once the cabinet is shuffled; he can simply revert to being irrelevant window dressing, anchoring the Qld votes before shuffling off to the nearest five star nursing home to enjoy his dotage. There to indulge in porridge dribbling, laxatives and boring witless anyone he can corner, with tales of political 'derring do'. Can't come soon enough.
Caught this on the tail end of a 7:30 Leigh interview of the man with perhaps the worst job on the Govt front bench..
:
Scott Morrison talks to Leigh Sales about terrorism and national security
SCOTT MORRISON: I think it's simply the transition of events. And as I said, David Irvine, as the Director-General, makes these assessments independently. These aren't decisions made by politicians. He is there to set those threat levels and that's what he has been commenting on. Now the Government has been receiving advice from our agencies about the emerging threat and we've been responding to that and we've been, I think, very upfront with the Australian people about that.
LEIGH SALES: Briefly before you go, there are rumours of a potential reshuffle in the Abbott frontbench. Are you ready to move on from Immigration?
SCOTT MORRISON: I'm totally committed to the job that I have in front of me. We have not yet fully stopped the boats, but the boats are stopping and there are the many threats across the border that I've referred to today in my speech. These matters are always for the Prime Minister to determine, but he has a very strong team and we've had a very strong year.
LEIGH SALES: Do you consider that you deserve a reward for the progress you've made in stopping the boats?
SCOTT MORRISON: To be able to be able to do what we said we'd do and get the results that we said we would get, that is the satisfaction I take from the job.
LEIGH SALES: Scott Morrison, thank you.
SCOTT MORRISON: Thanks, Leigh.
SCOTT MORRISON: I think it's simply the transition of events. And as I said, David Irvine, as the Director-General, makes these assessments independently. These aren't decisions made by politicians. He is there to set those threat levels and that's what he has been commenting on. Now the Government has been receiving advice from our agencies about the emerging threat and we've been responding to that and we've been, I think, very upfront with the Australian people about that.
LEIGH SALES: Briefly before you go, there are rumours of a potential reshuffle in the Abbott frontbench. Are you ready to move on from Immigration?
SCOTT MORRISON: I'm totally committed to the job that I have in front of me. We have not yet fully stopped the boats, but the boats are stopping and there are the many threats across the border that I've referred to today in my speech. These matters are always for the Prime Minister to determine, but he has a very strong team and we've had a very strong year.
LEIGH SALES: Do you consider that you deserve a reward for the progress you've made in stopping the boats?
SCOTT MORRISON: To be able to be able to do what we said we'd do and get the results that we said we would get, that is the satisfaction I take from the job.
LEIGH SALES: Scott Morrison, thank you.
SCOTT MORRISON: Thanks, Leigh.
Then again he could simply decide to deport all the IOS & GWM to Manus to sort it out or be stuck there indefinitely...
As it's a 'big' move; the BRB suggested that before PAIN was turned loose and the REPCON generated, a straw pole of opinion from PPRuNe readers should be called for.
Although it would be helpful if we could get a leaked version of the TSBC report before exposing to the world...
Perhaps Julian can help us out??
Hmm..anyone fluent in Mandarin...
: CHINA - Sino Confidential Aviation Safety reporting System (SCASS) [2004]MTF...
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 66
Posts: 1,129
the inca hierarchy were convinced that the sun wouldn't come up again unless a beating heart was offered in sacrifice each sunset.
I notice that despite the demise of the incas the sun still rises every morning.
CAsA should be the subject of a Royal Commission.
the royal commission needs to sort out what level of oversight of safety is actually needed.
the royal commission needs to investigate the history of regulatory bastardry and correct it.
If CAsA was abolished tomorrow THERE WOULD BE NO SAFETY DETRIMENT.
most, if not all, the experienced people in aviation pay no real heed to their nonsense at all anyway. lip service is not obedience. never was.
I notice that despite the demise of the incas the sun still rises every morning.
CAsA should be the subject of a Royal Commission.
the royal commission needs to sort out what level of oversight of safety is actually needed.
the royal commission needs to investigate the history of regulatory bastardry and correct it.
If CAsA was abolished tomorrow THERE WOULD BE NO SAFETY DETRIMENT.
most, if not all, the experienced people in aviation pay no real heed to their nonsense at all anyway. lip service is not obedience. never was.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 1,238
RIGHT ON THE MONEY... A ROYAL COMMISSION
DUBYA...AT THIS POINT... ITS THE ONLY WAY TO GO....
SO WHAT IF IT COSTS 2O MIL..CHICKEN FEED COMPARED TO THE 100S OF MILLIONS WASTED AND 6 MIL WAS IT FOR THE SKULL YEARS.
VERY POOR VALUE FOR MONEY THERE, IMO...BUT WHATS NEW.
HEARD THAT THE AG RECKONS CAsA is out on its own and nothing can be done by the Government.!! Hullo? Do we have a Soviet state separate from the Commonwealth. I dont think so...but thats what it smells like.
AND WHAT A STENCH IT IS.
ONLY A ROYAL COMMISSION CAN LIFT THE LID AND CLEAR THE AIR.
BRING IT ON.!
SO WHAT IF IT COSTS 2O MIL..CHICKEN FEED COMPARED TO THE 100S OF MILLIONS WASTED AND 6 MIL WAS IT FOR THE SKULL YEARS.
VERY POOR VALUE FOR MONEY THERE, IMO...BUT WHATS NEW.
HEARD THAT THE AG RECKONS CAsA is out on its own and nothing can be done by the Government.!! Hullo? Do we have a Soviet state separate from the Commonwealth. I dont think so...but thats what it smells like.
AND WHAT A STENCH IT IS.
ONLY A ROYAL COMMISSION CAN LIFT THE LID AND CLEAR THE AIR.
BRING IT ON.!
