ANZ Erebus crash 28 November 1979 - 34 years later.
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Even Wikipedia spells it out
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And you, paragraph 377, still try to put the blame on a computer operator, an accredited Aircraft Accident Inspector, perhaps because you read that emotional claptrap the Paul Holmes wrote called "The daughters of Erebus"??
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The pilot in command (PIC) of an aircraft is the person aboard the aircraft who is ultimately responsible for its operation and safety during flight. This would be the "captain" in a typical two- or three-pilot aircrew, or "pilot" if there is only one certified and qualified pilot at the controls of an aircraft. The PIC must be legally certified (or otherwise authorized) to operate the aircraft for the specific flight and flight conditions, but need not be actually manipulating the controls at any given moment. The PIC is the person legally in charge of the aircraft and its flight safety and operation, and would normally be the primary person liable for an infraction of any flight rule
Emotional claptrap is accurate. At the time I was surprised that he wasn't called to task on it. The NZ media seemed to be comfortable with it. I thought it was particularly low.
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Prospector, Wikipedia? Hmmm. As for Holmes, interesting book, but not a patch on Justice Mahons work and his subsequent book. But hey, each to his own belief. But it is interesting how the people on here criticising me as being biased have a completely biased opinion themselves?
Personally I don't need books or Wikepedia to guide my decisions or thoughts.
My knowledge of the accident lays much deeper than from online reading.
Personally I don't need books or Wikepedia to guide my decisions or thoughts.
My knowledge of the accident lays much deeper than from online reading.
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You started it bro with your bull**** & childish 89 & Ansett dig. you could have ignored it & moved on but in your usual style you throw the hand grenade in & smirk like a 15 year old girl. Well done 
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Justice Mahon apparently laid no importance on the three requirements that were very clearly laid down by the Company and CAA before a descent could be commenced.
1. Had to be identified on Radar
2. Had to be locked on to the DME
3. Had to be in VHF contact.
None of these requirements were met. If just one of them had been met there would have been no accident.
1. Had to be identified on Radar
2. Had to be locked on to the DME
3. Had to be in VHF contact.
None of these requirements were met. If just one of them had been met there would have been no accident.
But it is interesting how the people on here criticising me as being biased have a completely biased opinion themselves?
Personally I don't need books or Wikepedia to guide my decisions or thoughts.
The above paragraph is not a dig at you, the crew,or anyone else Para, it's what I observe to be true. I appreciate that others will have different opinions. I have no idea what you base your opinion of RC on but it must be different information than what I use.
I hope you're all having a good day, Framer.
It is a shame that Ron is still attacked, even after his untimely death at the hands of an inattentive car driver.
He was a man of intelligence and integrity who did not suffer fools.
On the first day of my Accident Investigators Course, he kind of chewed me a new one for not being as interested in his course as he thought I should be
In the end, it was a very interesting course and all through it he emphasised the fact that Investigators need an open mind all the way until the draft report becomes the final report and even after that if new evidence comes to light.
He also mentioned numerous investigations where he would try to physically bar Police from entering an accident site for the purpose of a "possible criminal investigation". He was extremely idealistic and did not ever believe that a criminal case should come from an Air Accident as that would hinder the collection of facts and statments in the future.
The one last thing I remember from his course all those years ago was a statment he made "your job is not to apportion blame to any one individual or cause. Your job is to find, to the best of your ability and the evidence at hand, what the true causes of the accident were, so that it may never happen again". Not quite word for word, but it was a very powerful statment and is still burned in my brain.
That really was what he was about. Preventing the same accident from happening over and over again.
Was he a very confident/borderline arrogant man? You bet, but he knew his
too. He aso had to be confident in the face of intense media scrutiny for most of his working life.
I wonder if he were a bit more friendly and a bit more approachable, he would be seen in an entirely different light.
Whether you like it or not, that report is still the only factual legal document produced.
Did you know that up until the time of his death, and maybe even to this day, he would get hate mail on the anniversary of the accident. Seriously people, don't blame the messenger, he was just doing his job, to the best of his ability, with what he had to go on.
I know other Inspectors in other high profile investigation who are also victimised for the perceived targeting of certain people/groups in their investigations.
It really is a very sad state of affairs.
A very sad day in the history of New Zealand aviation.
He was a man of intelligence and integrity who did not suffer fools.
On the first day of my Accident Investigators Course, he kind of chewed me a new one for not being as interested in his course as he thought I should be
In the end, it was a very interesting course and all through it he emphasised the fact that Investigators need an open mind all the way until the draft report becomes the final report and even after that if new evidence comes to light.
He also mentioned numerous investigations where he would try to physically bar Police from entering an accident site for the purpose of a "possible criminal investigation". He was extremely idealistic and did not ever believe that a criminal case should come from an Air Accident as that would hinder the collection of facts and statments in the future.
The one last thing I remember from his course all those years ago was a statment he made "your job is not to apportion blame to any one individual or cause. Your job is to find, to the best of your ability and the evidence at hand, what the true causes of the accident were, so that it may never happen again". Not quite word for word, but it was a very powerful statment and is still burned in my brain.
That really was what he was about. Preventing the same accident from happening over and over again.
Was he a very confident/borderline arrogant man? You bet, but he knew his
too. He aso had to be confident in the face of intense media scrutiny for most of his working life.I wonder if he were a bit more friendly and a bit more approachable, he would be seen in an entirely different light.
Whether you like it or not, that report is still the only factual legal document produced.
Did you know that up until the time of his death, and maybe even to this day, he would get hate mail on the anniversary of the accident. Seriously people, don't blame the messenger, he was just doing his job, to the best of his ability, with what he had to go on.
I know other Inspectors in other high profile investigation who are also victimised for the perceived targeting of certain people/groups in their investigations.
It really is a very sad state of affairs.
A very sad day in the history of New Zealand aviation.
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Noooby, for me your summation gets it in one...
Jack..who moi? agent provocateur? say it ain't so....but please refer your good self to my clarification..
As for 15 year old girls...thats just illegal...just
Jack..who moi? agent provocateur? say it ain't so....but please refer your good self to my clarification..
My comments relating to AN and 1989 are merely a reflection of other similarly polarizing threads that inevitably descend into name calling and recrimination.
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TE901 CFIT
Having operated into and out of McMurdo during the summer of 1978 I can claim to have some first hand knowledge of the perils of operating in the area. As I recall we kept HF skeds with McMurdo getting an update on the Viz and Horizon definition conditions prevailing. If the trend was toward a White-out we returned to Christchurch before reaching PNR.
Whilst I do not claim to recall in detail the sequence of events which led to the loss of TE901 I believe, as been stated previously by others, that the aircraft was allowed to descend below MSA without meeting the criteria laid down. As sad as it is it seems to me that the accident was a clear case of CFIT which was aviodable. We can never bring back those lost but we can, and should, all learn from this tragic event.
It does none of us any credit to continue to denigrate the reputation of any involved in either the accident or the investigation of it. It is 34 long years ago, let it rest.
Whilst I do not claim to recall in detail the sequence of events which led to the loss of TE901 I believe, as been stated previously by others, that the aircraft was allowed to descend below MSA without meeting the criteria laid down. As sad as it is it seems to me that the accident was a clear case of CFIT which was aviodable. We can never bring back those lost but we can, and should, all learn from this tragic event.
It does none of us any credit to continue to denigrate the reputation of any involved in either the accident or the investigation of it. It is 34 long years ago, let it rest.
Dark Knight,
I take issue with your casually dismissive attitude regarding those who would want to pay their respects, or otherwise remember the casualties resultant from this chapter of history.
Although not directly affected, I know several people who were. It's probably fair to say that most of them are "over it"; it's also fair to say that nobody has forgotten it. Nor should they.
Man doesn't have a great track record of learning from the past. We tend to keep repeating it, in different, re-invented versions.
So who are you to say that anybody should not remember this? If you don't want to read the thread, don't read it. And please don't comment on it again.
I take issue with your casually dismissive attitude regarding those who would want to pay their respects, or otherwise remember the casualties resultant from this chapter of history.
Although not directly affected, I know several people who were. It's probably fair to say that most of them are "over it"; it's also fair to say that nobody has forgotten it. Nor should they.
Man doesn't have a great track record of learning from the past. We tend to keep repeating it, in different, re-invented versions.
So who are you to say that anybody should not remember this? If you don't want to read the thread, don't read it. And please don't comment on it again.
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I understand that the cvr that was transcribed was edited.
It commenced 30 min prior to the prang,
with lucas speaking loudly that he did not agree, and jim could stick his ideas up his ar##e, followed by the slam of the flight deck door.
The rest was publically aired.
It commenced 30 min prior to the prang,
with lucas speaking loudly that he did not agree, and jim could stick his ideas up his ar##e, followed by the slam of the flight deck door.
The rest was publically aired.
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I understand that the cvr that was transcribed was edited.
It commenced 30 min prior to the prang,
with lucas speaking loudly that he did not agree, and jim could stick his ideas up his ar##e, followed by the slam of the flight deck door.
The rest was publically aired.
It commenced 30 min prior to the prang,
with lucas speaking loudly that he did not agree, and jim could stick his ideas up his ar##e, followed by the slam of the flight deck door.
The rest was publically aired.
Last edited by Paragraph377; 29th Nov 2013 at 08:35.
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Haughtney
NZ was nailed to the wall by SQ with the collapse of AN.
They wanted AN, the Australian domestic feeder network and more importantly their access to the trans Pacific ex Australia money pit that AN had rights and access to.
SQ with their 2 members on the NZ board at the time had decided to rescue Ansett and ride in on a white charger and save the day. To just buy Ansett out they realised they would have to cauterise the top 3 layers of management which would have cost a fortune in redundancies and contractual payouts.
Hence the most logical way to get the job done was collapse the compny and then come in and rescue it therefore taking the spoils.
With their plants on the NZ board they knew that NZ at that time couldn't hope to manage a bowel movement much less the Ansett beast which by that time was chasing its tail after having been cash raped by Abels and Murdoch years earlier who sold off all the owned aeroplanes and leased a new fleet, the profits being stripped out of the operation and lost into the TNT/News empires.
The SQ program was right on track but a bunch of camel shaggers flew aeroplanes into structures 24 hours prior to the fold of Ansett. The industry went into meltdown right there and then and the Lion got cold paws.
No exposure = no loss of face. That is precisely why the blind was there in the first place. SQ melted into the delightful oblivion of their blind and I would not be amazed if they actually drove the Linfox push to allegedly resurrect the Airline only to pull out after the resources of the staff policy ran out of funds.
I was at the time running my own Travel Agency and still am but was in close contact with mates in upper positions with many airlines. These are the inside details I have gleaned,
The NZ tragedy was something that hangs heavy over me to this day. I was working at TAA Burnie at the time and we had the wife of the Port of Burnie Authority on the aeroplane. That has sat cold on my heart ever since.
I feel it is time to let this tragic end to a wonderful experience lie at rest. God bless the good crew and let us hope their loss has taught lesson to all.
Best regards
EWL
NZ was nailed to the wall by SQ with the collapse of AN.
They wanted AN, the Australian domestic feeder network and more importantly their access to the trans Pacific ex Australia money pit that AN had rights and access to.
SQ with their 2 members on the NZ board at the time had decided to rescue Ansett and ride in on a white charger and save the day. To just buy Ansett out they realised they would have to cauterise the top 3 layers of management which would have cost a fortune in redundancies and contractual payouts.
Hence the most logical way to get the job done was collapse the compny and then come in and rescue it therefore taking the spoils.
With their plants on the NZ board they knew that NZ at that time couldn't hope to manage a bowel movement much less the Ansett beast which by that time was chasing its tail after having been cash raped by Abels and Murdoch years earlier who sold off all the owned aeroplanes and leased a new fleet, the profits being stripped out of the operation and lost into the TNT/News empires.
The SQ program was right on track but a bunch of camel shaggers flew aeroplanes into structures 24 hours prior to the fold of Ansett. The industry went into meltdown right there and then and the Lion got cold paws.
No exposure = no loss of face. That is precisely why the blind was there in the first place. SQ melted into the delightful oblivion of their blind and I would not be amazed if they actually drove the Linfox push to allegedly resurrect the Airline only to pull out after the resources of the staff policy ran out of funds.
I was at the time running my own Travel Agency and still am but was in close contact with mates in upper positions with many airlines. These are the inside details I have gleaned,
The NZ tragedy was something that hangs heavy over me to this day. I was working at TAA Burnie at the time and we had the wife of the Port of Burnie Authority on the aeroplane. That has sat cold on my heart ever since.
I feel it is time to let this tragic end to a wonderful experience lie at rest. God bless the good crew and let us hope their loss has taught lesson to all.
Best regards
EWL
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I had forgotten that TE901 had flown in to Mt Erebus on the 28th of November.
For me as a keen young pilot just getting in to aviation, it was a massive thump in the chest to realise that people I looked up to for their achievements in flying had been found to be mortal. (Initially the crew, then as the events unfolded another hit from the Airline and the investigation findings)
This accident changed the way the world thinks about aviation safety and for that reason it is remembered and argued about now 34 years later,
For me it changed my life as I became deeply interested in aviation safety and am today an investigator.
But for a few minutes I will remember the people who are not here any more.
RIP
For me as a keen young pilot just getting in to aviation, it was a massive thump in the chest to realise that people I looked up to for their achievements in flying had been found to be mortal. (Initially the crew, then as the events unfolded another hit from the Airline and the investigation findings)
This accident changed the way the world thinks about aviation safety and for that reason it is remembered and argued about now 34 years later,
For me it changed my life as I became deeply interested in aviation safety and am today an investigator.
But for a few minutes I will remember the people who are not here any more.
RIP