ATSB report on very low flying Thai Airways B777 at Melbourne.
Some people here don't understand the differences in " flying cultures" that exist.
They apply an Australian/American/British/ Kiwi kinda culture to the situation because that's all they know.
It is intentional, and accepted, to dive to the MSA or Min Altitude while conducting approaches in some parts of the world with no attempt made to follow a profile of 3 degrees.
They apply an Australian/American/British/ Kiwi kinda culture to the situation because that's all they know.
It is intentional, and accepted, to dive to the MSA or Min Altitude while conducting approaches in some parts of the world with no attempt made to follow a profile of 3 degrees.
From today's SMH...somewhat related? 
They mention upgrades to the ILS. Does this mean CAT II/III is coming to YSSY?
Airport chaos - and worse to come
Date
March 1, 2013 - 6:20PM
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Jacob Saulwick and Sherrill Nixon
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TRAVELLERS flying in or out of Sydney should be prepared for a tough month if dreary weather holds after a key plane navigation system was shut down.
The Instrument Landing System at Sydney Airport is closed for an upgrade for the rest of the month, reducing the number of planes that can take off and land at the airport in rain or fog.
The combination of rain, wind and the suspension of the ILS at Sydney meant more than 40 flights were cancelled on Friday and many more delayed.
Pilots typically do not need the ILS in clear weather, meaning that its absence for the next month should be felt only on rainy days.
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The ILS, a radio navigation tool, is operated by the federal government agency, Airservices Australia.
It is understood airlines and Sydney Airport were annoyed at a lack of notice from Airservices about the upgrade this month, and its potential to disrupt flights.
But a spokesman for the agency, Graham Robinson, said 35 knot winds, low cloud and low visibility on Friday would have created problems for pilots anyway.
"It certainly contributes to some of the delay," Mr Robinson said of the ILS, "but primarily the weather system is creating difficulties for us at the moment."
Mr Robinson denied that there had been little notice of the upgrade which, when finished, will allow more flights to land at Sydney in foggy conditions.
Qantas was forced to cancel four flights into Sydney on Friday and three flights out, and also reported multiple delays.
A spokesman for Virgin Australia said the airline was forced to cancel 17 flights and delay about 20 flights out of Sydney as a result of the poor weather, and the ILS upgrade.
"We also had an outage relating to the baggage belt that's operated by Sydney Airport in Terminal 2," the spokesman said.
A Jetstar spokesman said 17 flights into and out of Sydney were cancelled on Friday.
The Sydney Airport chief executive officer, Kerrie Mather, said in a media release this week that the ILS upgrade would ultimately lead to more reliable flights through Sydney.
“The works have been scheduled for a time of year to minimise the potential for operational disruption, however, until the end of March while the ILS is being upgraded, there may be delays in the event of unseasonably poor weather," Ms Mather said.
Date
March 1, 2013 - 6:20PM
149 reading nowRead later
Jacob Saulwick and Sherrill Nixon
inShare
submit to redditEmail articlePrintReprints & permissions
TRAVELLERS flying in or out of Sydney should be prepared for a tough month if dreary weather holds after a key plane navigation system was shut down.
The Instrument Landing System at Sydney Airport is closed for an upgrade for the rest of the month, reducing the number of planes that can take off and land at the airport in rain or fog.
The combination of rain, wind and the suspension of the ILS at Sydney meant more than 40 flights were cancelled on Friday and many more delayed.
Pilots typically do not need the ILS in clear weather, meaning that its absence for the next month should be felt only on rainy days.
Advertisement
The ILS, a radio navigation tool, is operated by the federal government agency, Airservices Australia.
It is understood airlines and Sydney Airport were annoyed at a lack of notice from Airservices about the upgrade this month, and its potential to disrupt flights.
But a spokesman for the agency, Graham Robinson, said 35 knot winds, low cloud and low visibility on Friday would have created problems for pilots anyway.
"It certainly contributes to some of the delay," Mr Robinson said of the ILS, "but primarily the weather system is creating difficulties for us at the moment."
Mr Robinson denied that there had been little notice of the upgrade which, when finished, will allow more flights to land at Sydney in foggy conditions.
Qantas was forced to cancel four flights into Sydney on Friday and three flights out, and also reported multiple delays.
A spokesman for Virgin Australia said the airline was forced to cancel 17 flights and delay about 20 flights out of Sydney as a result of the poor weather, and the ILS upgrade.
"We also had an outage relating to the baggage belt that's operated by Sydney Airport in Terminal 2," the spokesman said.
A Jetstar spokesman said 17 flights into and out of Sydney were cancelled on Friday.
The Sydney Airport chief executive officer, Kerrie Mather, said in a media release this week that the ILS upgrade would ultimately lead to more reliable flights through Sydney.
“The works have been scheduled for a time of year to minimise the potential for operational disruption, however, until the end of March while the ILS is being upgraded, there may be delays in the event of unseasonably poor weather," Ms Mather said.
Grandpa Aerotart
True framer - peeling off the most perfect low drag/constant descent 3 degree NPA (or ILS for that matter) on a sim ride in Japan is the fastest way to fail said check. Dive and Drive is the only acceptable path from TOPD to MDA.
I have no idea whether the same culture exists in Thai but if it does how did they get below the limiting steps?
Ex A380 driver - the BUFF automatically corrects for ISA DEVN?
I have no idea whether the same culture exists in Thai but if it does how did they get below the limiting steps?
Ex A380 driver - the BUFF automatically corrects for ISA DEVN?
The crew Fcuked up. (I can't believe they took 50 seconds to initiate the go around following ATC's directive. I am sure there are many other destinations that Thai goes to in the 777 that require other than ILS approaches.
The ATSB report s not good enough to make these accusations. But it reads well and its only when you spend time to piece together fragments from different parts of the report to make a complete time line that it becomes evident.
Groundspeeds derived from the reported calls don't make sense either. I suspect the position or time of some calls may not be correct, which would change the flavour of the incident too.
The Thai crew did something bad. But the ATSB report is not sufficiently good to determine exactly what it was - in my opinion.
I have no idea whether the same culture exists in Thai but if it does how did they get below the limiting steps?
I have been based in Asia for a while and most nights 777's and A320's dive low and fast down to 1000AGL over the hills 20nm from touch down around the arc into our home port. I am normally about 2000ft higher than them at the same point and about 50kts slower. Sometimes ATC are so used to the dive and drive that they " command " me to increase my rate of descent, not for traffic reasons but because they think I am stuffing up the approach.
That is their SOP and it makes the approach much less " error tolerant".
I think that is what we see at the Gold Coast and again in Melbourne. In my opinion, the battle is cultural.
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Forget about calls for ILSs everywhere, it just is not going the happen
Australia isn't that bad by comparison.
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"They apply an Australian/American/British/ Kiwi kinda culture to the situation because that's all they know."
Yep. and they think all pilots are trained as well as they are when they are not.
Having spent most of my flying life in asia, I can fully understand the screw up in the Thai cockpit.
Bad training, under confident, decision making based on fear, poor CRM, steep cockpit gradient.
Its all a recipe for a balls up which is why these carriers often have . . . . .their balls up!!!!
Yep. and they think all pilots are trained as well as they are when they are not.
Having spent most of my flying life in asia, I can fully understand the screw up in the Thai cockpit.
Bad training, under confident, decision making based on fear, poor CRM, steep cockpit gradient.
Its all a recipe for a balls up which is why these carriers often have . . . . .their balls up!!!!
I know nought about the technicalities of what has occurred, but reading the ATSB report leaves me no wiser. My view however about the tone of the report and its choice of words leads me to think that it is a deliberate piece of dissimulation designed to minimise the danger of this event to the public.
