Qantas Engineering redundances - Advice required!!!
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Thanks for all the advice and support, however I will not jump unless pushed. Retraining is an option, but relocation is not on the cards.
But the answer I am looking for is how will they select the people to go for CR.
I just want to try and work out whether I will be close or not? they seems to be no set process in current EBA's.
But the answer I am looking for is how will they select the people to go for CR.
I just want to try and work out whether I will be close or not? they seems to be no set process in current EBA's.
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To be on the list;
1/ No Airbus types
2/ Div 1 or 2 super
3/ Over 45
4/ B2
and in that order. The more you look like the above the more likely you are on the list. Sorry guys..
1/ No Airbus types
2/ Div 1 or 2 super
3/ Over 45
4/ B2
and in that order. The more you look like the above the more likely you are on the list. Sorry guys..
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Given neither unions or management have discussed the criteria, any of the foregoing is guesswork at best.
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly..
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly..
If they start tapping blokes based on their age, the excrement will fly.
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Originally Posted by short circuit
If you know your are on the list, why volunteer to go? There would be no appeal against that.
Not always the case but given the scale of redundancies and the area in question it MAY be something wroth considering.
But absolutely definitely consult your Union. There are times Unions overstep their mark, but this isn't one of them. Get your money's worth, they are (or should be given it is their defined role) experts on your side of the field.
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Thnx Romulus.
ALAEA are meeting with management 10.00 Monday. All Sydney Execs to attend. Mark Gant, Wayne Vasta, Bobby McGee and Brad Cox. Reps Chris Burleigh, Ross Richardson and Andrew Joppling. The above should be able to answer any questions.
I will be there too with Paul Cousins our President.
ALAEA are meeting with management 10.00 Monday. All Sydney Execs to attend. Mark Gant, Wayne Vasta, Bobby McGee and Brad Cox. Reps Chris Burleigh, Ross Richardson and Andrew Joppling. The above should be able to answer any questions.
I will be there too with Paul Cousins our President.
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Nah
They cannot use age or super division, look at your award.. Not only that but it's discrimination and bloody obvious if a couple hundred over 50 year olds get sacked .. Yep airbus guys are safe , sparkies safe as well .
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They cannot use age or super division, look at your award.. Not only that but it's discrimination and bloody obvious if a couple hundred over 50 year olds get sacked .. Yep airbus guys are safe , sparkies safe as well .
I wouldn't say sparkies are safe, as they are B2 licence. B1 has a greater coverage including mechanical and avionics. B2 is just avionics.
If you've only got 330, you may not be as safe as you think, and there will be an overabundance of A380 guys, as the company employed numbers that would have serviced the original 20 A380's they were going to get. Now it's only 12 and they have too many A380 guys in the hangars and the terminal.
There is no set procedure of how the culling will go, but it ain't gonna be pretty, no matter the way it is done.
Not to worry, those who don't go yet, will get another shot down the track.
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Consolidated Award
Start with Clause 16.
Bear in mind things in this space are never that simple, there will be a lot of history and precedents established as to how things will be done. This is where your Union is particularly useful, they've had to do this before, it is a "core part of their business" and the odds are they have far better knowledge of how it should be done than most management who simply (and correctly) don't have this as part of their skillset. They will have HR backing them up.
There's a reason a lot of the Industrial Relations type HR people are paoched from a Union background, simply put they are far better trained and far harder in this space than regulation HR or corporate types who are drilled in so called "win-win" negotiations.
There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.
Best of luck with this and for the future, I'd love to see a vibrant aviation engineering capability in Australia but the simple fact is that it's another sector where we look far too expensive on a spreadsheet. I'm hearing that, fully costed (i.e. with all overheads, business costs and profit margin added on), overseas MROs are providing LAMEs at US$35 per hour. Australian fully loaded costs are somewhere between 3 and 4.5 times that figure in Aus$.
And with the high Australian dollar that US$35 is effectively Aus$35 so at a minimum a saving of $65 per LAME hour makes it very easy to recoup the costs of ferry flights etc. and QF only get charged for the hours worked on the aircraft, they have no labour holding costs in white space etc.
Tough times for a truly interesting and fascinating industry, hopefully someone figures out a way to keep as much of it within this country as possible and they get all the support from both business and labour that is needed.
Start with Clause 16.
Bear in mind things in this space are never that simple, there will be a lot of history and precedents established as to how things will be done. This is where your Union is particularly useful, they've had to do this before, it is a "core part of their business" and the odds are they have far better knowledge of how it should be done than most management who simply (and correctly) don't have this as part of their skillset. They will have HR backing them up.
There's a reason a lot of the Industrial Relations type HR people are paoched from a Union background, simply put they are far better trained and far harder in this space than regulation HR or corporate types who are drilled in so called "win-win" negotiations.
There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.
Best of luck with this and for the future, I'd love to see a vibrant aviation engineering capability in Australia but the simple fact is that it's another sector where we look far too expensive on a spreadsheet. I'm hearing that, fully costed (i.e. with all overheads, business costs and profit margin added on), overseas MROs are providing LAMEs at US$35 per hour. Australian fully loaded costs are somewhere between 3 and 4.5 times that figure in Aus$.
And with the high Australian dollar that US$35 is effectively Aus$35 so at a minimum a saving of $65 per LAME hour makes it very easy to recoup the costs of ferry flights etc. and QF only get charged for the hours worked on the aircraft, they have no labour holding costs in white space etc.
Tough times for a truly interesting and fascinating industry, hopefully someone figures out a way to keep as much of it within this country as possible and they get all the support from both business and labour that is needed.
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Originally Posted by ampclamp
QF94, it will be operational requirements if / when people are tapped Even if it is dressed up that way it will plausibly be operational requirements.
How they pick between identically qualified individuals will be ugly.
It is going be a harrowing time ....
How they pick between identically qualified individuals will be ugly.
It is going be a harrowing time ....
The ONLY definition of Redundancy is diminished quantity of work.
Theoretically that defines the skillsets that will be "downsized", furthermore it could be argued that when identically qualified individuals must be differentiated then whoever can be shown to have a diminished workload is the unfortunate party (i.e. if one has a diminished workload and another does not then the definition of Redundancy means the reduced workload party is chosen).
As I said previously, it is never clear in this situation, it comes down to negotiation. SP or whoever can tie up massive management resources trying to sort it out, normally managers' don't have time to get so involved so sweeteners may be offered to encourage more "volunteers".
That's the headspace you need to get yourself in, you KNOW what the end outcome will be, you need to be thinking how best to look after your position.
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Regarding Lame CR criteria, and with all things being equal, years of continuous service with the company coupled with years of financial membership with the ALAEA would seem like a reasonable filter that the union may suggest for any selection criteria.
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Romulus, I'm not sure how these mro's hide their costs however $35 an hour will not buy you an experienced LAME who will be able to fix your aeroplane. This may be the cost of a signature to pen off work but more likely the cost is offset by super cheap non licenced labour. That is where the savings are.
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Very interested to hear what other industries, or avenues for employment people are currently investigating.. What other industries or roles does our skill set translate to?? Wishing everyone involved all the best over the next few months..
Last edited by Hugh Mungous; 23rd Nov 2012 at 12:25.
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Originally Posted by redstone
Romulus, I'm not sure how these mro's hide their costs however $35 an hour will not buy you an experienced LAME who will be able to fix your aeroplane. This may be the cost of a signature to pen off work but more likely the cost is offset by super cheap non licenced labour. That is where the savings are.
It may well be they are taking a loss simply to keep people busy and are awaiting the upturn.
Either way it spells major problems for local people and businesses. How we respond to that determines the future of the industry.
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There is no "win-win" here. It's really "lose-lose" So each party will seek to minimise its losses, and that means the company wants to pay exactly what it has to and no more, you need your Union to argue for something extra for you using whatever tricks and negotiation tactics they can.
This company will keep it simple. They see no value in doing otherwise because of the time they spend with each of the out going employees. This is a process they want to be as quick as possible.
There is no history of extras with this company in these matters. Packages have already been sorted and they will keep who they want despite any protests.
If the unions can improve their members lot, I'd be surprised but very pleased for them.
Planning for your future is the best thing and as I have said in a previous post, in 2-3 years, these turkeys will find that that they have overdone the redundancies and will want to re-hire again. They have done it a few times before and they will do it again.
Either way it spells major problems for local people and businesses. How we respond to that determines the future of the industry.
Last edited by AEROMEDIC; 23rd Nov 2012 at 12:11.
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Oz licenses are excepted in China, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Middle East and NZ. You still have to sit air leg. Hong Kong will need you to do all the elec modules if you don't have full B1. The problem is that jobs are limited in those countries and they will want 3 types which pretty much aren't the ones QF guys have got. Either get on a A330?B777 course or look for another career.
As far as the cost of Australia.........Virgin Australia just sent a 737NG to Nashville (east coast of US) for a heavy check. You do the math on that one.
As far as the cost of Australia.........Virgin Australia just sent a 737NG to Nashville (east coast of US) for a heavy check. You do the math on that one.
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Middle Management - BMI 65 and growing
What is another knock down observation is how in the past 3 years the Qantas middle management has just grown and grown. I wonder what some of these muppets do during a day. It isn't reading books on subjects like "Getting the most from your employees", or "Negotiating win win outcomes".