5th September QF Announcement
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SOPs and hauntney I hope you are being careful with these old 777s as we want them in good nic when they get handed down to QF. Wonder if they will be delivered with a full tank of gas?
Old is only good with pizza or wine 
I reckon though if we do send an old clunker or two....mayby a set of steak knives as well?
(all said in jest people)
short flights long nights
I only ever take mine down to the corner shop on a Friday afternoon, Don, just to fill it up with free fuel, I promise.
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Because QF is an end of the line carrier with a relatively small home market and a sparsely populated catchment area tie ups makes sense. No one flies via Australia to get some where else, it doesn't make sense.
A daily flight from each capital city to Singapore for the Asian connections, and a daily run to Dubai for the European/American connections would just about cover it. Time to start talking to SQ as well ?
Only London, Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Bangkok and a few other would be worth doing all the way with QF aircraft.
Emirates hub and spoke network can make money moving people between Perth and Paris, QFs point to point system can't.
A daily flight from each capital city to Singapore for the Asian connections, and a daily run to Dubai for the European/American connections would just about cover it. Time to start talking to SQ as well ?
Only London, Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Bangkok and a few other would be worth doing all the way with QF aircraft.
Emirates hub and spoke network can make money moving people between Perth and Paris, QFs point to point system can't.
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AJ has got us all fooled with his end of the line bu//$#:/.
Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.
People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:
1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa
In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?
Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.
They are paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.
Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.
People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:
1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa
In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?
Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.
They are paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.
Last edited by Mstr Caution; 2nd Sep 2012 at 05:53.
Originally Posted by Mstr Caution
AJ has got us all fooled with his end of the line bu//$#:/.
Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.
People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:
1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa
In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?
Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.
The staff and shareholders paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.
Europe isnt the only place people want to fly to.
People still want to fly to or from Australia direct to:
1. The Pacific
2. North America
3. South America
4. Asia
5. Middle East
6. South Africa
In that regard Australia is placed geographically well to provide these direct services.
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?
Qantas is positioned poorly now because of the lost years thinking mainline would look after itself whilst executives frolicked around Asia starting other enterprises.
The staff and shareholders paying the price of taking their eye off the ball.
Interesting to read the local take on this over here in the sand pit. The local papers don't seem to hold the Qantas position in all this as being particularly strong...more a case of a dog with its tail between its legs 
Would be great to see Qantas in this part of the world though!
These quotes from a local paper here in Dubai on the wekend:
And this says it all about local perceptions here and their thoughts on what Qantas has to offer.
Cheers
Would be great to see Qantas in this part of the world though!These quotes from a local paper here in Dubai on the wekend:
“Given the poor state of affairs at Qantas, the airline is effectively now forced to join up with Emirates, its one-time adversary, as the ailing Australian carrier battles to survive,” Saj Ahmad, chief analyst at London-based StrategicAero Research, told Khaleej Times.
.“As Qantas deferring A380s and cancelling 35 787-9s, there’s simply no way they can grow with a small 747-400 fleet and just a dozen A380s when compared to the hundreds of wide-bodied 777s and A380s that Emirates has at its disposal.
Had Qantas bothered to get its house in order beforehand, it could have got a better deal with its Arabian rival,” Ahmad concluded.
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AJ spruikes that Qantas is the best investment grade airline in the world.
It's been profitable for the last 20 years.
Last time I looked Australia's geography hasn't changed.
What has changed is Qantas' ability to compete on service standards with that of other foreign carriers.
How many times has Dixon & Joyce stated customers will pay a premium to fly Qantas.
They still do, the fares Qantas charge to Europe and the aircraft are still full.
I have spoken to CEO's in passing when I've had the opportunity.
Repeatedly they have told me Qantas don't compete internationally on product and network.
It's been profitable for the last 20 years.
Last time I looked Australia's geography hasn't changed.
What has changed is Qantas' ability to compete on service standards with that of other foreign carriers.
How many times has Dixon & Joyce stated customers will pay a premium to fly Qantas.
They still do, the fares Qantas charge to Europe and the aircraft are still full.
I have spoken to CEO's in passing when I've had the opportunity.
Repeatedly they have told me Qantas don't compete internationally on product and network.
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Cheap fuel....
How would QF get cheaper fuel? EK pay the market rate, which is why we sometimes tanker back to DXB. Please tell me you don't believe that Margie Jackson blurb about free fuel from years ago when she was trying to sell QF for a big bonus?
The Don
The Don
Emirates does NOT get free/cheap fuel people, full stop.!!!!!!!!/QUOTE]
Guys,
It was a question, not a statement.
I was asking for info to complete the picture I have of the situation, but I didn't expect the emotion received.
To answer your question Don, NO I didn't believe Margret Jackson's statement.
You guys are touchy......
What happens when commercial capability allows ultra long haul Australia direct Europe bypassing the Asian & ME hub carriers?
Emirates can fill planes from secondary cities such as Perth because people getting onto that plane are going to multiple destinations rather than just one. Effectively you combine several flights to different places on one aircraft, which if flown individually wouldn't be economic.
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That is the reason
Why JB did not get the gig at QF. he wantedntomtake on middle east carriers by flying LHR/ central Europa direct via Perth. Making Perth a hub to distribute pax to major centers in OZ. the intelligence of the board did not get the strategy.
The hand sweeping majestically across the once owned globe (realm of Qantas) is now struggling to maintain RPT twixt BNE-SYD-MEL.
The parallels are staggering. Tragic, disgusting, but staggering.
At least one 'once great' leader I can think of immediately had the decency to dispose of himself in a (semi) respectable manner..
The parallels are staggering. Tragic, disgusting, but staggering.
At least one 'once great' leader I can think of immediately had the decency to dispose of himself in a (semi) respectable manner..
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Free fuel
No I dont believe they get cheap or free fuel either , however if normal subsidies that are applied to car petrol in DXB which last time I was there was about 6 dhs a gallon or so I think( happy to stand corrected) so pretty cheap by oz stds.
So if the AVTUR at least out of DXB did not attract any of the sort of taxes applied to other carriers globally at there source, there could be an argument about a partial subsidy in effect.
Airlines more or less pay the same for their jets, the same for fuel and the same for other elements on a global scale. Thus , the only significant difference is the cost of labour.
So.... If you take the total number of EK employees as 50000 divided into about 150 jets you get....around 333 per aircraft... So not the worlds lowest figures... ( I think southwest have 80 per jet) .
Ipso facto if they are making the sort of profits they are , the main variables being labour costs leads to the conclusion they have a lower wage cost base.
Which is probably true.
Widebody captain doing average hours on probably 250k AUD tax free but total employee cost still equals 250 to EK, versus QF 380 captain on around 350k .... So 30% lower ... And this is across all employee groups...that is the reason they make coin.
Oh , and the fact they can vary FTLs, get waivers , annex a,b,c variations
And increase overtime hours to 92 per month from around 80 12 years ago helps the bottom line.
Even a govermnent owned airline like China Southern cant get its CAAC to be as maleable to changes as the GCAA is to EKs requests...but then the chairman of CZ is not the chairman of the CAAC either... Hmmmmm ?
But is still a good gig by most measures hence the line up to get in there- I had a good time and if you can keep below the radar its still a good opportunity compared to staying in a slowly dying career path at QF!
WJA
So if the AVTUR at least out of DXB did not attract any of the sort of taxes applied to other carriers globally at there source, there could be an argument about a partial subsidy in effect.
Airlines more or less pay the same for their jets, the same for fuel and the same for other elements on a global scale. Thus , the only significant difference is the cost of labour.
So.... If you take the total number of EK employees as 50000 divided into about 150 jets you get....around 333 per aircraft... So not the worlds lowest figures... ( I think southwest have 80 per jet) .
Ipso facto if they are making the sort of profits they are , the main variables being labour costs leads to the conclusion they have a lower wage cost base.
Which is probably true.
Widebody captain doing average hours on probably 250k AUD tax free but total employee cost still equals 250 to EK, versus QF 380 captain on around 350k .... So 30% lower ... And this is across all employee groups...that is the reason they make coin.
Oh , and the fact they can vary FTLs, get waivers , annex a,b,c variations
And increase overtime hours to 92 per month from around 80 12 years ago helps the bottom line.
Even a govermnent owned airline like China Southern cant get its CAAC to be as maleable to changes as the GCAA is to EKs requests...but then the chairman of CZ is not the chairman of the CAAC either... Hmmmmm ?
But is still a good gig by most measures hence the line up to get in there- I had a good time and if you can keep below the radar its still a good opportunity compared to staying in a slowly dying career path at QF!
WJA
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Woodie,
Totally agree with you except that your salary figures are conservative. Accurate enough for tech crew but the blunties chucking bags in the desert earning Oz $500 a month is more like a tenth of what QF has to pay. Same for most of the "lower" grades at the airport in Dubai.
Aircraft purchase price is also lower at EK. I know for a fact that EK pays less for a 380 than for a 777-300ER! Utilisation is higher too. Every time you land at LHR you can see multiple QF jets on remote parking half the day. EK don't ever let the oil cool down.
Unionised crew spend twice as long per layover tthan EK crew, requiring twice as many bodies and doubling the salary, allowances, and hotel costs.
Blind Freddie can see where this is going....
MW.
Totally agree with you except that your salary figures are conservative. Accurate enough for tech crew but the blunties chucking bags in the desert earning Oz $500 a month is more like a tenth of what QF has to pay. Same for most of the "lower" grades at the airport in Dubai.
Aircraft purchase price is also lower at EK. I know for a fact that EK pays less for a 380 than for a 777-300ER! Utilisation is higher too. Every time you land at LHR you can see multiple QF jets on remote parking half the day. EK don't ever let the oil cool down.
Unionised crew spend twice as long per layover tthan EK crew, requiring twice as many bodies and doubling the salary, allowances, and hotel costs.
Blind Freddie can see where this is going....
MW.
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That's rarely the fault of the crew, though management may like to have people believe that's the case. EK typically enter a market with daily services, on the other hand QF seem to think a few a week will do the trick. The crew sit around waiting for the next service to lob up. European services are typically constrained by curfew requirements at each end. Having said all that, QF's fleet utilisation is absolutely miserable and management seem to believe that having aircraft sitting on the ground is good for business, part of their "cost saving" brilliance by not having them in the air costing money to run I suppose. But it typically doesn't come down to crew, at least not unless you consider insane and blatantly unsafe 2 man crewing hours used by some airlines.
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As far as I'm aware the LHR reschedule was to "best suit business travellers with early morning arrivals..." though both 380's sit in LHR all day (14-16hrs).. hmm not the best utilisation? 
If QF were to send 380's to DXB that's 3 per rotation essentially allowing an extra day of work each month / aircraft...
If QF were to send 380's to DXB that's 3 per rotation essentially allowing an extra day of work each month / aircraft...
Last edited by dizzylizzy; 3rd Sep 2012 at 19:40.
Unionised crew spend twice as long per layover tthan EK crew, requiring twice as many bodies and doubling the salary, allowances, and hotel costs
Same as with factored flight time. Every airline in the world logs flight time as flight time but not at Emirates. You can fly for 15 hours but only half goes in the logbook.
I believe the FAA were looking into some of these issues but not sure what came of it.
Pretty hard to compete with that sort of competitive advantage.
Last edited by neville_nobody; 4th Sep 2012 at 02:44.