Planes may leave late in new system - Perth
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TL, I don't think any of the crew have noticed a pattern who the non conformers are. The Flow controller may be aware having to document the events but as a general rule, the guys who are sorting them out couldn't care less. We just have to deal with it. By the time it all happens we're usually a bit to busy to take notes 
Thread Starter
The West 14 May:
Passengers at airport set to soar
Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian
Perth Airport's annual passenger growth could quadruple to 40 million in the next 17 years - more than double the estimate by the airfield's owners - according to a State Government paper.
The WA State Aviation Strategy Issues Paper, which has just been released for comment, warns that "even that figure, which represents a growth of 7.7 per cent a year, is conservative given over the past five years passenger numbers have soared by 9.2 per cent a year".
Plane movements are also breaking records, increasing by 260 per cent since 1992 to 141,000 a year.
The report warns of the importance of investment in the airport's infrastructure to meet demand but Perth Airport Pty Ltd chief executive Brad Geatches yesterday dismissed the figures.
"The past is not a good indicator of the future and there are very good structural reasons why we expect the annual growth rate to slow materially," he said.
Perth Airport argues that much of the demand has been driven by fly-in, fly-out workers for the construction phase of big projects and demand will peak about 2015.
"The net effect is that FIFO passenger numbers are expected to flatten and, potentially, decrease for a period after construction activity peaks," Mr Geatches said.
He also believed that outbound international growth rates for WA would "slow materially over the next few years".
Construction of a new regional terminal is under way and work on extensions to the international terminal is set to start shortly. But the paper says these will not be adequate for the growth forecasts.
However, one airline executive believes that "past growth patterns are a better indicator of future trends".
"When you put the oil and gas coupled with mining sector projects together, you would have to say that the growth prognosis for the next 20 years will remain very positive," the executive said.
"Perth will eventually be bypassed by direct connections from the Pilbara to the Eastern States as the Perth experience is simply too hard."
Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian
Perth Airport's annual passenger growth could quadruple to 40 million in the next 17 years - more than double the estimate by the airfield's owners - according to a State Government paper.
The WA State Aviation Strategy Issues Paper, which has just been released for comment, warns that "even that figure, which represents a growth of 7.7 per cent a year, is conservative given over the past five years passenger numbers have soared by 9.2 per cent a year".
Plane movements are also breaking records, increasing by 260 per cent since 1992 to 141,000 a year.
The report warns of the importance of investment in the airport's infrastructure to meet demand but Perth Airport Pty Ltd chief executive Brad Geatches yesterday dismissed the figures.
"The past is not a good indicator of the future and there are very good structural reasons why we expect the annual growth rate to slow materially," he said.
Perth Airport argues that much of the demand has been driven by fly-in, fly-out workers for the construction phase of big projects and demand will peak about 2015.
"The net effect is that FIFO passenger numbers are expected to flatten and, potentially, decrease for a period after construction activity peaks," Mr Geatches said.
He also believed that outbound international growth rates for WA would "slow materially over the next few years".
Construction of a new regional terminal is under way and work on extensions to the international terminal is set to start shortly. But the paper says these will not be adequate for the growth forecasts.
However, one airline executive believes that "past growth patterns are a better indicator of future trends".
"When you put the oil and gas coupled with mining sector projects together, you would have to say that the growth prognosis for the next 20 years will remain very positive," the executive said.
"Perth will eventually be bypassed by direct connections from the Pilbara to the Eastern States as the Perth experience is simply too hard."
"The net effect is that FIFO passenger numbers are expected to flatten and, potentially, decrease for a period after construction activity peaks," Mr Geatches said.
Well, potentailly the sun may not rise tomorrow morning, so I guess technically he is correct. He is also trying to hose down talk of having to actually provide some improved infrastructure such as more space and a new runway.
Keep it up Brad. Unfortunately for you there are some very big movers and shakers sick and tired of you company's stranglehold on Perth air traffic. So they are doing something about it, you know, like talking to the owners of the airport, not the leaseholders.
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Tuesday 22/5 ... midmorning wind vrb 3kts , perfect viz , no cloud in the state ... 6 waiting at 21 for departure , flow of arrivals onto 21 ... rwy 24 ... sitting idol... 15 minute delay ... 
I think I've seen R24 used for about 20 minutes in the last two weeks. If it is unavailable due works it should be NOTAMed.
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Taxiway works stop the tower from nominating R24, means arrival rate of 24 an hour not 26 using R21/R24.
Flows know when an aircraft is not compliant as soon as an aircraft departs, they can choose to de-prioritise the flight (or not) depending on the sequence and give additional delay up to the MOTAMed holding.
Flows know when an aircraft is not compliant as soon as an aircraft departs, they can choose to de-prioritise the flight (or not) depending on the sequence and give additional delay up to the MOTAMed holding.
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Please excuse my ignorance - the other morning I was watching the aircraft lined up on taxiway bravo for a 21 departure, and I couldn't help notice that the next aircraft to take to the runway seemed to take forever to lineup. I looked into the distance and couldn't spot any arriving a/c. Why isn't the next cab on the rank moving to lineup as soon as the one cleared for takeoff is rolling? It must be procedural and I understand the wake turbulance but these where all 737's.
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Maybe the pilot was slow to get moving, or the tower did not have departure instructions for the aircraft because the Dep controller was too busy with all the other Perth Departures and IFR departures out of Jandakot.
Not a rumour. They broadcast on center frequency that it was due to staff shortages. Departures and arrivals delayed.
I wonder how many people have to leave or go sick to cause a shut down of big chunks of airspace.
I wonder how many people have to leave or go sick to cause a shut down of big chunks of airspace.
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No TIBA, no TRA, no NOTAMS. We call this the Short break procedure. We use this process in times where a controller must take a break and there is no one qualified to work the airspace. Simply refusing access to airspace for 30 minutes appears to be another new way of handling it.
Easy enough to keep IFR out of CTA but what about VFR in E looking for a service. IFR pickup, anyone?
I heard that the expression "due staff shortages" or similar were NOT supposed to be used but when we get asked "why are we being delayed?", then "operational requirement" doesn't seem to cut it. "Not telling!" doesn't seem to go down well either.
Easy enough to keep IFR out of CTA but what about VFR in E looking for a service. IFR pickup, anyone?
I heard that the expression "due staff shortages" or similar were NOT supposed to be used but when we get asked "why are we being delayed?", then "operational requirement" doesn't seem to cut it. "Not telling!" doesn't seem to go down well either.
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The minister doesn't find out about "delays". The minister only finds out about airspace closure. Hence, no closures- only 'delays'.
That way the managers can stand in front of a senate estimates committee and say "we do not have a staff shortage- we have adequate staffing".
Perhaps you could print out the relevant transcripts to read to help pass the time next time you are holding...due to staff shortage (cough cough)...I mean 'operational requirement'?
That way the managers can stand in front of a senate estimates committee and say "we do not have a staff shortage- we have adequate staffing".
Perhaps you could print out the relevant transcripts to read to help pass the time next time you are holding...due to staff shortage (cough cough)...I mean 'operational requirement'?
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Thursday was nearly as bad. Arrival rate limited to 18/hour so sectors could stay combined (3 staff instead of six).
The "Operational Requirement" euphemism won't work much longer, if it still does. Eventually everybody will know it means "Staff shortage and we're trying to cover it up".
The minister may not find out directly, but apparently the Airlines are asking pointed questions of ASA, and if they don't get answers that they like, will I'm sure be on to him.
The "Operational Requirement" euphemism won't work much longer, if it still does. Eventually everybody will know it means "Staff shortage and we're trying to cover it up".
The minister may not find out directly, but apparently the Airlines are asking pointed questions of ASA, and if they don't get answers that they like, will I'm sure be on to him.
Nautilus, it is a wonder they have not started applying pressure to ASA and the minister already. The airlines (passengers), through extended traffic delays and lack of services, have been footing the bill for a few years now.
How odd that a Government that is so keen on taxing carbon is also holding the purse strings for an entity that can leave us up there churning through tonnes of fuel for almost an hour! We could abolish ASA all together and the whole country can live on the carbon tax alone.
How odd that a Government that is so keen on taxing carbon is also holding the purse strings for an entity that can leave us up there churning through tonnes of fuel for almost an hour! We could abolish ASA all together and the whole country can live on the carbon tax alone.
Thread Starter
The West, 11 July 2012
Airport snarl-up a 'nightmare'
Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian
Updated July 11, 2012, 2:20 am
A new system to allocate landing and take-off slots at Perth's overcrowded airport is not working properly, delaying flights and putting pilots under stress.
In a letter leaked to The West Australian, the Regional Aviation Association of Australia has told its WA members that air traffic control provider Airservices Australia has admitted the system is failing and that too many pilots are forced to declare "fuel emergencies".
Airservices recently introduced the Metron system to try to better manage the limited runway capacity at Perth Airport.
The system gives priority to incoming flights originating more than 800 nautical miles from Perth, meaning a flight from Broome or Adelaide will get clearance to land ahead of a flight from Karratha or Albany. Most of the critical fly-in, fly-out flights come from sites within the 800-nautical-mile radius.
This is creating a bottleneck with many flights being put into holding patterns for up to 40 minutes and forced either to divert or declare a fuel emergency - indicating the plane will run out of fuel before it reaches its intended destination if it continues to stay in a holding pattern - to be given priority to land.
The Metron system was introduced to ration the limited slots at Perth Airport and to try to stop long and wasteful queuing for take-off or holding for landing.
According to the RAAA, the acting chief executive of Airservices, Andrew Clark, has admitted the system is not working.
Airservices told the association they were forced into Metron because of the congestion at Perth.
In an official response, an Airservices spokeswoman said it was "well aware of a number of concerns that some regional airlines have expressed with the deployment of Metron in Perth".
"We have been working with individual operators and industry bodies (including the RAAA) in recent weeks to ensure that the benefits of the software are realised," she said.
"Based on airline feedback, Airservices is also reviewing procedures which determine which aircraft use the Metron Traffic Flow tool to better improve the overall air traffic flow into Perth."
RAAA says that as a result of the chaos, on-time performance for many airlines has slumped from 90 per cent to 50 per cent.
Some operators have told The West Australian pilots are also being put under pressure to meet slot times, adding to stress. Missing a take-off slot can mean a delay of up to two hours.
One airline said the system "was a nightmare".
Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian
Updated July 11, 2012, 2:20 am
A new system to allocate landing and take-off slots at Perth's overcrowded airport is not working properly, delaying flights and putting pilots under stress.
In a letter leaked to The West Australian, the Regional Aviation Association of Australia has told its WA members that air traffic control provider Airservices Australia has admitted the system is failing and that too many pilots are forced to declare "fuel emergencies".
Airservices recently introduced the Metron system to try to better manage the limited runway capacity at Perth Airport.
The system gives priority to incoming flights originating more than 800 nautical miles from Perth, meaning a flight from Broome or Adelaide will get clearance to land ahead of a flight from Karratha or Albany. Most of the critical fly-in, fly-out flights come from sites within the 800-nautical-mile radius.
This is creating a bottleneck with many flights being put into holding patterns for up to 40 minutes and forced either to divert or declare a fuel emergency - indicating the plane will run out of fuel before it reaches its intended destination if it continues to stay in a holding pattern - to be given priority to land.
The Metron system was introduced to ration the limited slots at Perth Airport and to try to stop long and wasteful queuing for take-off or holding for landing.
According to the RAAA, the acting chief executive of Airservices, Andrew Clark, has admitted the system is not working.
Airservices told the association they were forced into Metron because of the congestion at Perth.
In an official response, an Airservices spokeswoman said it was "well aware of a number of concerns that some regional airlines have expressed with the deployment of Metron in Perth".
"We have been working with individual operators and industry bodies (including the RAAA) in recent weeks to ensure that the benefits of the software are realised," she said.
"Based on airline feedback, Airservices is also reviewing procedures which determine which aircraft use the Metron Traffic Flow tool to better improve the overall air traffic flow into Perth."
RAAA says that as a result of the chaos, on-time performance for many airlines has slumped from 90 per cent to 50 per cent.
Some operators have told The West Australian pilots are also being put under pressure to meet slot times, adding to stress. Missing a take-off slot can mean a delay of up to two hours.
One airline said the system "was a nightmare".
1. Do any of our ATC get to a chance to do US exchange work? Watching ATC at a busy US hub is where we could learn some lessons about getting people on and off runways (single, multiple and crossing) quickly.
2. Also, a system of RNAV arrivals that seems to work well particularly in EU is the system that resembles the security queue - having an s pattern arrival flow with strict speed control on each leg and constant descent paths. It doesn't use much more fuel, and gets maximum landing rates close in where short range spacing control is easier.
When traffic is light or if spacing needs to be decreased corners can be cut to get minimum spacing/maximum landing rates (like raising the tape in the outside barriers of the security queue).
If spacing needs to be increased extending any of the legs is also easy.
Being back at min speed for an hour and a half from the FIR boundary to meet an arrival crossing time and then being narked at for being 2 minutes out because of a massive descent wind gradient change is not satisfying for anyone.
Why not have a rough crossing time filter or a medium level hold a bit further out and then into the arrival queue.
6.........5..........4..........3............2...........1
7
8.........9..........10.........11.........12.........13
:::::::::::::::::::............17.........16.........15
2. Also, a system of RNAV arrivals that seems to work well particularly in EU is the system that resembles the security queue - having an s pattern arrival flow with strict speed control on each leg and constant descent paths. It doesn't use much more fuel, and gets maximum landing rates close in where short range spacing control is easier.
When traffic is light or if spacing needs to be decreased corners can be cut to get minimum spacing/maximum landing rates (like raising the tape in the outside barriers of the security queue).
If spacing needs to be increased extending any of the legs is also easy.
Being back at min speed for an hour and a half from the FIR boundary to meet an arrival crossing time and then being narked at for being 2 minutes out because of a massive descent wind gradient change is not satisfying for anyone.
Why not have a rough crossing time filter or a medium level hold a bit further out and then into the arrival queue.
6.........5..........4..........3............2...........1
7
8.........9..........10.........11.........12.........13
:::::::::::::::::::............17.........16.........15
Last edited by ramble on; 12th Jul 2012 at 00:06.
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HD's hand puppet at work again.
However, is there any chance 24 could be used for arrivals and 21 for departures (with obvious exceptions). Surely that ease the congestion at peak.
However, is there any chance 24 could be used for arrivals and 21 for departures (with obvious exceptions). Surely that ease the congestion at peak.