Airbus A330-303, VH-QPA 7 October 2008 - ATSB Report
Dont know about a FBW bus pulling 5.5g but the A310 was built pretty strong - lah.
Bay Of Bengal anybody?
Bay Of Bengal anybody?
9V-STO (cn 433) Nicknamed "Suddenly Turn Over" by SIA staff after the registration. This aircraft unintentionally performed some aerobatics over the Bay of Bengal quite a few years ago.
Psycho Joe:
Psych, What happened to AF447 wasn't ridiculous - the tightly integrated Airbus control system was no longer able to represent reality to the crew in a meaningful way that would have allowed them to take corrective action in time.
As for "troubleshooting" - this is exactly what the crew of the QF A380 successfully did after they lost an engine and cut a data-bus in the process. There was nothing in the manual for that one either.
Quote:
What I was trying to say, perhaps badly, is that the systems by which you are flying the aircraft are also creating the artificial reality by which you are monitoring the performance of the system. If the system screws up, you not only have a badly performing flight control system, you have a badly performing reality.
Sunfish, I've flown Boeings and A330's and what you're saying is ridiculous.
Quote:
Dont they teach free thinking anymore?
In essence, no. It's called troubleshooting and according to Boeing and Airbus, it generally does more harm than good.
What I was trying to say, perhaps badly, is that the systems by which you are flying the aircraft are also creating the artificial reality by which you are monitoring the performance of the system. If the system screws up, you not only have a badly performing flight control system, you have a badly performing reality.
Sunfish, I've flown Boeings and A330's and what you're saying is ridiculous.
Quote:
Dont they teach free thinking anymore?
In essence, no. It's called troubleshooting and according to Boeing and Airbus, it generally does more harm than good.
As for "troubleshooting" - this is exactly what the crew of the QF A380 successfully did after they lost an engine and cut a data-bus in the process. There was nothing in the manual for that one either.
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I have about 4000 hours command time on A320 aircraft, and while the A330 is very similar, there are many subtle differences, so I can't specifically comment on the A330. Some posters here seem to say that Airbus aircraft should have a master multi position switch that can be activated to switch to a new flight control law. It is not as simple as that because the computers all have redundancy built in, and by simply switching it off, this could cause even further unforeseen problems, than the the original fault, which may be a minor sub-system providing input to it's associated computer. Flying a Airbus in Direct Law is quite a demanding task, but interestingly enough, the Bus can be flown without ANY computers by rudder pedals and stab trim only. I think that this crew did exceedingly well considering that they had a problem that had NEVER presented before. If you would like to know more about how this aircraft ticks, follow this link.
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety
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As for "troubleshooting" - this is exactly what the crew of the QF A380 successfully did after they lost an engine and cut a data-bus in the process. There was nothing in the manual for that one either.
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Aveng,
Your comments appear to indicate you haven't actually read the report in any great detail...
This one in particular...
is dead wrong.
Your comments appear to indicate you haven't actually read the report in any great detail...
This one in particular...
There was an off button, along with a FAULT light, that was on steady above the Capts head!
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Totally off topic I know Mod, but would QF mind sending that A380 over the SCG, it worked a treat before in MEL and its continuing, 300 not out. Just once more should do it!
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Psych, What happened to AF447 wasn't ridiculous - the tightly integrated Airbus control system was no longer able to represent reality to the crew in a meaningful way that would have allowed them to take corrective action in time.
It had everything to do with two pilot's who flew into a line of thunderstorms because of a lack of Wx radar mode awareness.
The crew failed to recognise a transient unreliable speed indication and induced the aircraft into a stall and made no effort to recover from the stall until approx 2000 agl, despite the fact that the aircraft was barking:
STALL STALL...STALL STALL... STALL STALL
How could they be presented with more "reality"?
Every system on AF447 was functioning normally when it hit the water.
I'm sorry, but I do find this Airbus/FBW witch hunt by non pilot's to be ridiculous. You simply dislike something that you don't understand.
If I could borrow a Clarksonism:
Conventional flight controls are like trying to manoeuvre a cow up the back steps of your house, whereas FBW is like smearing honey into Miranda Kerr.
Last edited by psycho joe; 5th Jan 2012 at 03:18.
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You are wrong. Unreliable airspeed - and aircraft was in alternate law. They failed to fly the correct stall recovery. have you flown airbus or been in one?
Yes, you are right the aircraft was in alt law. And what are the characteristics of alt law?
-In pitch: Same as normal law
-In roll: Same as normal law
-In yaw: same as normal law
that was my point.
They didn't fail to fly the correct recovery, they failed to recognise that the aircraft was stalling so they didn't attempt to recover.
yes and yes.
I totally agree, I didn't bring it up.
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Mate back to recurrent ground school for you.
Alternate law-
No pitch or bank protection.
High alpha prot and max alpha replaced by low speed stability (stall warning speed)
No alpha floor protection
Alternate law-
No pitch or bank protection.
High alpha prot and max alpha replaced by low speed stability (stall warning speed)
No alpha floor protection
I would have said it was exceedingly obvious that the protections inherent in normal law were not available in alt law, given that we are talking about an aircraft that stalled into the sea. However those protections, or the lack of, do not alter the pilot's ability to control the aircraft. ie this was not a control issue.
Last edited by psycho joe; 5th Jan 2012 at 07:43.
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Aveng,
Your comments appear to indicate you haven't actually read the report in any great detail...
This one in particular...
Quote:
There was an off button, along with a FAULT light, that was on steady above the Capts head!
is dead wrong.
Your comments appear to indicate you haven't actually read the report in any great detail...
This one in particular...
Quote:
There was an off button, along with a FAULT light, that was on steady above the Capts head!
is dead wrong.
Your right I didn't read the ATSB report, I saw more of the raw data and made my own conclusions based on what I know about the A330 and a little study of the maintenance/training manuals. The adiru fault light was on almost immediately, along with the aprox 1sec failure scan rate that was stuffing up the Ecam action list. The supposed lack of response by the elevator came from prim1 handing over to 2 to 3 then to alt law so there was a slight delay - but quite quick when you realise how much the a/c's fly by wire was trying to sort things and comply with pilot input.
