Plane talking: Bogan Air ATSB report
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I'm sure it will all come out in the wash in a post accident Royal Commission one day, if nothing decisive is done soon.
It will be a relief to the various doomsayers that post on pprune, when this"accident" finally occurs.
I guess it is only a matter time until that does happen, statistically speaking.
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Folly
doom·say·er
n. One who predicts calamity at every opportunity
n. One who predicts calamity at every opportunity
It could be that Blackhand who when you read his posts is notorious for cutting down anybody who has a comment, thought or opinion that resides above just the base level understanding of issues which is the world Blackhand resides in.
Interesting fact from Wikepedia:
Black Hand; Unification or Death unofficially known as the Black Hand , was a secret military society formed by members of the Serbian army in the Kingdom of Serbia, which was founded on September 6, 1901. It was intent on uniting all of the territories containing significant Serb populations annexed by Austria-Hungry. Through its purported connections to the June 1914, assassination in Sarajevo of Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria, the Black Hand may have been one of the principal catalysts of the start of WW1.
The Black Hand was founded on September 6, 1901.The conspirator's first meeting was in the same year.
Black Hand; Unification or Death unofficially known as the Black Hand , was a secret military society formed by members of the Serbian army in the Kingdom of Serbia, which was founded on September 6, 1901. It was intent on uniting all of the territories containing significant Serb populations annexed by Austria-Hungry. Through its purported connections to the June 1914, assassination in Sarajevo of Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria, the Black Hand may have been one of the principal catalysts of the start of WW1.
The Black Hand was founded on September 6, 1901.The conspirator's first meeting was in the same year.
Go back to smoking coconut shells or repairing anything and everthing mechanical (according to your other posts)
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Funny that, most of the supposed doomsayer comments I have read in this thread appear to be written by some pretty articulate people whose so called predictions seem to regularly come true.
You can use Ad Hominem argument with the best of them, why not for a change show some evidence of these "predictions" actually occuring.
And please explain what is the "something" that should be done.
Well back to the thread! Here's Bens latest and follow up to this 'Go Round' event:
Jetstar's 2nd cockpit cockup will not be investigated | Plane Talking
Maybe this could be linked to the Cairns Incident thread?
Jetstar's 2nd cockpit cockup will not be investigated | Plane Talking
Maybe this could be linked to the Cairns Incident thread?
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Well back to the thread! Here's Bens latest and follow up to this 'Go Round' event:
The ATSB is aware of a go-around event at Cairns on 3 November 2011 and is aware of public speculation about the nature of the event. The ATSB sought information from Jetstar to clarify the circumstances and is satisfied that the event was not reportable under the TSI Act. The ATSB is also satisfied that a number of the matters raised in your email are incorrect. In particular, we are satisfied that there was no stall warning and no activation of aircraft flight envelope protection systems and that, as a precautionary go-around, the procedure was conducted from an altitude well above that for which stabilised approach criteria apply. The ATSB does not consider any further action on this event by the ATSB is necessary.
@myoleoextended.
@myoleoextended.
Thread Starter
This thread is about a Melbourne screw up, the comment you poster is regarding a pre dated Cairns screw up. As they are regular events you need to ensure you reference the correct event.
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@teresa green, I'm glad you made this post. I agree with you in feeling a little sorry for both the Captain and the FO however this does not excuse some fairly fundamental errors by both of them.
"As for myself, if given a F/O with such small hours on the clock, I would personally fly the thing myself, and give him as little work as possible, let some other skipper take up the slack as far as his training was concerned. Time and time again TAA handed me a " baby" time and time again, I did most of the work myself, my duty was to the PAX, not check and training. Selfish yes, short sighted, yes, but each Skipper has the right on his ship to how he runs it and he should and would expect a competent F/O by his side. I feel sorry for them both, the Skipper was not given what he was entitled to, and the young bloke/girl was not given sufficient training. The fault is totally with the company, not either pilot. It will be interesting to see if the pissing stops for this one."
I agree with you in feeling a little sorry for both the Captain and the FO however this does not excuse some fairly fundamental errors by both of them.
I would be really interested to hear the views of Jetstar Captains (or any Captain) with regard to TG's comments and how line Captains are dealing with flying with very inexperienced FO's.
"As for myself, if given a F/O with such small hours on the clock, I would personally fly the thing myself, and give him as little work as possible, let some other skipper take up the slack as far as his training was concerned. Time and time again TAA handed me a " baby" time and time again, I did most of the work myself, my duty was to the PAX, not check and training. Selfish yes, short sighted, yes, but each Skipper has the right on his ship to how he runs it and he should and would expect a competent F/O by his side. I feel sorry for them both, the Skipper was not given what he was entitled to, and the young bloke/girl was not given sufficient training. The fault is totally with the company, not either pilot. It will be interesting to see if the pissing stops for this one."
I agree with you in feeling a little sorry for both the Captain and the FO however this does not excuse some fairly fundamental errors by both of them.
I would be really interested to hear the views of Jetstar Captains (or any Captain) with regard to TG's comments and how line Captains are dealing with flying with very inexperienced FO's.
Fair enough the jocks get a bit of a rap for this (inc messing with FMS at night turning final), but, taking up Bula's post, that STAR is bloody ridiculous; 425ft/nm, 990ft/min THE WHOLE WAY at 140TAS from 2170ft AGL with 5.1 track miles, at night, with no FGS guidance. If someone told you to stay at 2170 until 5.1nm on a gin-clear day on a visual straight-in, you'd tell him to F off. But that is what this STAR does at night with a 90° turn on to 1.5nm final! That crew, and especially the effo, were set up, big time.
A similar but more forgiving STAR at YPPH was canned by all the jet operators into Perth including QF after being classed as too dangerous. Do-able by local aces (I quite enjoyed the challenge) but for general use, it was a setup for a cockup.
It is IMO unreasonable to expect an unexperienced FO (and line captain, for that matter) to work out how to do that last bit with no forewarning. The potential to stuff it up is huge, and any operator has an obligation to warn crews about such a trap, not leave it up to the crews to figure it out themselves. Suck eggs, you say? I fully concur, but in this case, the pilot workforce should have been warned in the route manual. Like it or not, our masters are driving us in a particular direction (the magenta road!
) and it is their responsibility to also tell us about the traps that lay in wait that cannot be handled by the automatics. No problems, not doubt for Teresa et al, but then they didn't have FOQA.
Ban that STAR!
Another worrying aspect is that the ATSB didn't pick up on the difficulty of the approach, or if they did, didn't deem it important enough to comment?
Oh and Leadsled, you've been told before your assertions on AFM procedures are wrong. Why do continue to peddle them? The JQ GA checklist thing has been done to death; would you like us to keep dredging up incidents from your era?
A similar but more forgiving STAR at YPPH was canned by all the jet operators into Perth including QF after being classed as too dangerous. Do-able by local aces (I quite enjoyed the challenge) but for general use, it was a setup for a cockup.
It is IMO unreasonable to expect an unexperienced FO (and line captain, for that matter) to work out how to do that last bit with no forewarning. The potential to stuff it up is huge, and any operator has an obligation to warn crews about such a trap, not leave it up to the crews to figure it out themselves. Suck eggs, you say? I fully concur, but in this case, the pilot workforce should have been warned in the route manual. Like it or not, our masters are driving us in a particular direction (the magenta road!
) and it is their responsibility to also tell us about the traps that lay in wait that cannot be handled by the automatics. No problems, not doubt for Teresa et al, but then they didn't have FOQA. Ban that STAR!
Another worrying aspect is that the ATSB didn't pick up on the difficulty of the approach, or if they did, didn't deem it important enough to comment?
Oh and Leadsled, you've been told before your assertions on AFM procedures are wrong. Why do continue to peddle them? The JQ GA checklist thing has been done to death; would you like us to keep dredging up incidents from your era?
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Bloggs,
With all due respect, this STAR has been around since ADAM was a kid, and is done thousands of times a week day and night, day in day out without any problems by other operators.
Seems everyone else has no problems with it. Your statement that the "crew were set up" is absolute crap.
I have intimate knowledge of said procedure having flown it the odd cuppla thousand times, and it is not difficult. Where people can get into trouble is being too fast over Sheed and NOT at 2500, and then cutting the corner instead of making a square turn on to final.
BTW, its called The Mark 1 Eyeball.
With all due respect, this STAR has been around since ADAM was a kid, and is done thousands of times a week day and night, day in day out without any problems by other operators.
Seems everyone else has no problems with it. Your statement that the "crew were set up" is absolute crap.
I have intimate knowledge of said procedure having flown it the odd cuppla thousand times, and it is not difficult. Where people can get into trouble is being too fast over Sheed and NOT at 2500, and then cutting the corner instead of making a square turn on to final.
BTW, its called The Mark 1 Eyeball.
Last edited by Normasars; 14th Dec 2011 at 10:04.
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Where people can get into trouble is being to fast over Sheed and NOT at 2500, and then cutting the corner instead of making a square turn on to final.
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Interesting thread. Seems to me one that is woven into screwups leading to headlines in other places beside the antipodes....
For example, Colgan.
Looking at it from the perspective of a gliding instructor for 25 years, (also PPL/IR etc etc) I have found that some wouldbe pilots suffer from a shortage of brain. Especially when tired, challenged, scared. If you have two people with these defects in one cockpit, all the pax in the back can do is hope the laws of luck will spare us.
Question is how to identify them and suggest they take up a less exciting career....
For example, Colgan.
Looking at it from the perspective of a gliding instructor for 25 years, (also PPL/IR etc etc) I have found that some wouldbe pilots suffer from a shortage of brain. Especially when tired, challenged, scared. If you have two people with these defects in one cockpit, all the pax in the back can do is hope the laws of luck will spare us.
Question is how to identify them and suggest they take up a less exciting career....
time to revisit the GOLDEN RULES.
1 the aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft.
2 fly,navigate,communicate-in that order.
3 one head up at all times.
4 cross check the accuracy of the FMS.
5 know your FMA at all times.
6 when things don't go as expected-TAKEOVER.
7 use the proper level of automation for the task.
8 practice task sharing and back-up each other.
1 the aircraft can be flown like any other aircraft.
2 fly,navigate,communicate-in that order.
3 one head up at all times.
4 cross check the accuracy of the FMS.
5 know your FMA at all times.
6 when things don't go as expected-TAKEOVER.
7 use the proper level of automation for the task.
8 practice task sharing and back-up each other.
Yet another prediction of Qantas/Jetstar/CASA causing a disasterous crash unless "something" is done.
It will be a relief to the various doomsayers that post on PPRuNe, when this"accident" finally occurs.
I guess it is only a matter time until that does happen, statistically speaking.
It will be a relief to the various doomsayers that post on PPRuNe, when this"accident" finally occurs.
I guess it is only a matter time until that does happen, statistically speaking.
1. The same incidents were not occurring on a regular baisis 10-15 years ago.
2. How many more incidents of a similar nature have to occur until the regulator actually takes some action?
Tiger were dealt with pretty swiftly, meanwhile Jetstar appear to have some sort of systematic problem with people unable to conduct goarounds properly and QF have had 10 something engine failures.
Safe flying is about mitigating risk, and it is the regulator's job to ensure that airlines have procedures and training and maintenance in place to lessen the risk. How can the same thing keep happening and yet nothing is done about it? CASA took some pretty serious action against Tiger so how about some consistency?
For the record I am not predicting an accident anytime soon, however if the trend continues as it is, I think someone might get a bit unlucky one dark and stormy night somewhere. On saying that QF have been very lucky over past 10 years or have they made their own luck by having experienced pilots with a decent training system behind them?
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Crikey this industry lures some socialy inept strokers.
The sanctamonious crap in this thread is almost beyond belief.
If this is the future of aviation in Aus we are all rooted.
Im assuming the average age of complainants in this thread is about 16 and a half?.
Walk a mile kids.
The sanctamonious crap in this thread is almost beyond belief.
If this is the future of aviation in Aus we are all rooted.
Im assuming the average age of complainants in this thread is about 16 and a half?.
Walk a mile kids.
Blackhand is a turd.
He has already put down the eventual crash of Qantas or Jetstar aircraft to the law of averages:
The writing in bold is exactly what Olivia Wirth and CASA will spout when there is an accident - "Qantas is a victim of the law of averages".
That statement will be used to excuse Qantas and CASA from any liability.
My own guesstimate is that CASA has not had the ability nor the inclination to monitor Qantas for at least Forty years. They didn't pick up Ansett, they won't pick up Qantas.
The eventual accident will be portrayed as a complete surprise to them - which it will be - for all the wrong reasons.
He has already put down the eventual crash of Qantas or Jetstar aircraft to the law of averages:
Yet another prediction of Qantas/Jetstar/CASA causing a disasterous crash unless "something" is done.
It will be a relief to the various doomsayers that post on pprune, when this"accident" finally occurs.
I guess it is only a matter time until that does happen, statistically speaking.
It will be a relief to the various doomsayers that post on pprune, when this"accident" finally occurs.
I guess it is only a matter time until that does happen, statistically speaking.
That statement will be used to excuse Qantas and CASA from any liability.
My own guesstimate is that CASA has not had the ability nor the inclination to monitor Qantas for at least Forty years. They didn't pick up Ansett, they won't pick up Qantas.
The eventual accident will be portrayed as a complete surprise to them - which it will be - for all the wrong reasons.
---- you are incorrect regarding AFM compliance and changes.
Sorry, it's you who are wrong on this one, but you are far from alone.
We have a specific regulation requiring compliance with the AFM, quite black and white.
If an individual operator wants to vary a procedure laid down in the AFM, agreement of the TC holder ( and, defacto, the approval of the NAA of the state of certification) and (given our ridiculously restrictive regulations) CASA should raise a Legislative Instrument to cover the change, which will (normally) be specific to that operator and specific type.
From a legal standpoint, I do not know the status of an Airbus FCOM, and whether some or all of it forms part of the AFM (or JAA/EASA equivalent).
If you read the full details of this ATSB report, you will find the remarks by Airbus on this subject, they rejected the change and the notion that the operator could make this unilateral change.
How AFM required procedures (unchanged) are incorporated in the Ops. Manual of a particular operator is a separate issue, and is quite in order ----- ie: additional amplification in the writeup of a particular phase of operation.
Tootle pip!!
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that STAR is bloody ridiculous; 425ft/nm, 990ft/min THE WHOLE WAY at 140TAS from 2170ft AGL with 5.1 track miles, at night, with no FGS guidance ... But that is what this STAR does at night with a 90° turn on to 1.5nm final!
I recall a CF back from THR of 34 set up in SEC F-PLN and activated after Sheed would greatly assist in situation awareness.
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As a keen student of approach problems I have studied the MEL 34 ATSB report. It looks to me like it was one of probably hundreds each year around the world where things get down to the last one or two slices of swiss cheese. Not desirable but a good learning exercise for all. I would bet that the world's A320 fleet would not on average have more hours in the cockpit, nor more inherently competent pilots.
The key is training and preparedness within a wider airline environment (scheduling, training etc) of "not pushing things too far".
Let's be clear-they didn't end up landing on a golf course and they didn't nearly lose the aircraft after an approach into a microburst. They mis-handled a difficult approach and gave it away.
I suspect that a little less "I told you so" on all sides might lower the temperature here and move us toward learning rather than on-line punishment by slur. We need a "Just Culture" on these boards as well as in the cockpits.
The key is training and preparedness within a wider airline environment (scheduling, training etc) of "not pushing things too far".
Let's be clear-they didn't end up landing on a golf course and they didn't nearly lose the aircraft after an approach into a microburst. They mis-handled a difficult approach and gave it away.
I suspect that a little less "I told you so" on all sides might lower the temperature here and move us toward learning rather than on-line punishment by slur. We need a "Just Culture" on these boards as well as in the cockpits.
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Jeez LedSled, can you lose the "Tootle pip"? You sound just like my sister after 20 years of hearing the same.....
Point is kids, AJ and Co. ARE playing the numbers game. They know they will probably (statistically) get away with this systematic destruction of the brand, at least until they are all long gone wallowing in their vast bank accounts.....
and Manilla
yes we are, unless Sen X gets his amendment up....
Point is kids, AJ and Co. ARE playing the numbers game. They know they will probably (statistically) get away with this systematic destruction of the brand, at least until they are all long gone wallowing in their vast bank accounts.....
and Manilla
If this is the future of aviation in Aus we are all rooted.
Last edited by Dixons Millions; 14th Dec 2011 at 20:18.