Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
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Poll last day.
The data base has finished doing it's stuff early; the results. Seasonally adjusted:-
1) 92.6% Yes.
2) 96.9% Yes.
3) 91.2% Yes.
4) 87.6% Yes.
5) 82.1% Yes.
Thank you all again.
P4 a.k.a. (Ping ping).
It would be more relevant with total numbers as well!
Note that the RRAT committee has slated two more hearings:
Inquiry into the Aviation Accident Investigations
Public Hearings and transcripts
Date Location Programs Transcripts
22 October 2012 Canberra, ACT (PDF 109KB) (HTML & PDF)
19 November 2012 Canberra, ACT
21 November 2012 Canberra, ACT
Public Hearings and transcripts
Date Location Programs Transcripts
22 October 2012 Canberra, ACT (PDF 109KB) (HTML & PDF)
19 November 2012 Canberra, ACT
21 November 2012 Canberra, ACT
More fun'n'games in how not to run the aviation safety authorities...mental note better order some more popcorn and a couple of slabs of beer!
(don't forget the Kilkenny for "K")
Last edited by Sarcs; 2nd Nov 2012 at 10:44.
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Cirque du safety?
I am hoping that along with a fistful of questions the Senators bring the following items with them to be applied to Team Skull, Beaker and ASA :
1.Pineapples (around a dozen or so)
2.Blowtorch
3.Pooh detector
4.Spare 'salve' for those in the firing line
5.'Water boarding' equipment. To be applied each time somebody answers 'I will take that on notice' or each time they do not provide an answer to each question they have previously 'taken on notice' in the past year.
1.Pineapples (around a dozen or so)
2.Blowtorch
3.Pooh detector
4.Spare 'salve' for those in the firing line
5.'Water boarding' equipment. To be applied each time somebody answers 'I will take that on notice' or each time they do not provide an answer to each question they have previously 'taken on notice' in the past year.
Last edited by gobbledock; 2nd Nov 2012 at 10:46. Reason: Avoiding the elephant and spilled blood in the room
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I am hoping that along with a fistful of questions the Senators bring the following items with them to be applied to Team Skull, Beaker and ASA
If you had been there to hear the crap coming out from all the players you would have a different view on the hearing
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If you had been there to hear the crap coming out from all the players you would have a different view on the hearing
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Crime of the century
bh - If you had been there to hear the crap coming out from all the players you would have a different view on the hearing
In any form of 'hearing' or debate both sides will try to put their best 'argument' forward, so it is with this hearing. Now in a debate, not too much hard evidence is required but in this Parliamentary enquiry, spin, rhetoric, bluster, table thumping and filibuster don't cut the mustard. The industry knows far too much about this and other similar events.
The enquiry has gone far beyond the surface issues; it's now a matter of why the ATSB was prepared to present the report they did. Because it may, in a 'nice' legal way be arguable that technically "no crime" was committed. But from every other point of view, the report and the issues surrounding are the crime of the century. The intent was there and pretty well proven. 'He who must not be named' will not take the fall; nope, so where, oh where will the buck stop. Be interesting to watch the moves on the CASA chess board.
The Senate is probably now much more interested in who orchestrated this embarrassing, 'unfortunate' episode and why?
I wish 'em good luck. But alas, I fear without the erudite Blackhand to guide their faltering footsteps and to light their path with the beacon of his unfailing light, they are doomed. PS, the word to get your wand light working is "Lumos"
Last edited by Kharon; 2nd Nov 2012 at 20:17. Reason: Editing a letter to the Senate naming Blackie as the only hope we have
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He who must not be named' will not take the fall; nope, so where, oh where will the buck stop. Be interesting to watch the moves on the CASA chess board.
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Hmmm, nope, I reckon further down the food chain. What's an office manager or two in the great scheme of things?. They have one or two they could loose and do us all a favour (cue TB). Time will tell how the fortunes of the Golden West Mafia are cast.
Nobody is interested until there are smoking holes. When that happens they will be very interested.
It sounds to me like the calculation many are making is that they will be safely retired before the chickens come home to roost.
It sounds to me like the calculation many are making is that they will be safely retired before the chickens come home to roost.
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Nobody is interested until there are smoking holes. When that happens they will be very interested.
Blame games will be the order of the day, lip service to friends and relatives of the victims and committees/work parties to examine how it went wrong.
They'll find someone to take the fall and high fives all around.
Enter the red tape man who sees to it that no substantial change will take place without a pyramid of committees sucking up money and time giving those responsible a chance to retire gracefully or move on to create havoc somewhere else.
Last edited by AEROMEDIC; 3rd Nov 2012 at 00:14.
Blackie for someone who has been so dismissive of the whole Senate Inquiry thing..
...you seem to be spending a considered amount of time trolling the relevant threads and defending the indefenceable!
And now it appears that you were actually there...
In what capacity were you there and why do you seem to have such a vested interest in the proceedings??
C'mon blackie fess up mate or to borrow from the Ginger Ninja..take "your relentless negativity"...and 'cronyism' elsewhere as I don't see you getting much support around here!
Anyway back to the thread..here's Ben's latest:
Pel-Air report documents released, extra hearings called | Plane Talking
This senate hearing is a separate issue and is turning out to be the same farce as all senate hearings.
And now it appears that you were actually there...
On the other hand, I am hoping they bring a firehose to wash all the cowpoo out of the chamber - and yes Gobbles I mean from all sides of the argument.
If you had been there to hear the crap coming out from all the players you would have a different view on the hearing
If you had been there to hear the crap coming out from all the players you would have a different view on the hearing
C'mon blackie fess up mate or to borrow from the Ginger Ninja..take "your relentless negativity"...and 'cronyism' elsewhere as I don't see you getting much support around here!
Anyway back to the thread..here's Ben's latest:
Pel-Air report documents released, extra hearings called
Ben Sandilands | Nov 03, 2012 1:28PM | EMAIL | PRINT
Documents released by the Senate inquiry into the Pel-Air crash report confirm that the pilot had no regulations or guidance for making decisions about diverting to other airstrips when the weather at Norfolk Island deteriorated en-route.
The inquiry, into Air Accident Investigations, has already heard admissions by the ATSB that it isn’t proud of its report, which failed to address critical safety issues both inside and outside the corporate jet which was performing an air ambulance charter for Careflight when it was ditched in the sea after it couldn’t make visual contact with the runway and was close to running out of fuel, on 18 November 2009.
The documents published on the inquiry web page, relate to allegations that the much delayed final report into the accident, published on 30 August, omitted relevant matters that rendered the air safety regulator, CASA, and the operator, Pel-Air, open to serious criticism for administrative failures and unsafe flying practices as revealed in a confidential and highly unfavorable CASA audit of Pel-Air, and then, through an abuse of process, framed the entire blame for the incident on the captain of the flight, Dominic James.
While the technical details concerning the crash, and the audited deficient state of the Pel-Air operation, and the suitability of its Westwind corporate jet to operate long oceanic flight stages, have been reported at length here and in some other forums, the general public interest in these matters is the competency, integrity and transparency of CASA, the air safety regulator, and the ATSB, the air safety investigator, which report to the same minister.
The committee, instigated by Senator Nick Xenophon, held a day of public and private hearings on 22 October and has now scheduled further public hearings on the 19th and 21st of November. It is provisionally expected to report its findings and recommendations by 29 November.
Commentary Most of the testimony heard by the committee to date has called for the withdrawal of the ATSB report because of factual errors, and its failure to conform to the international (ICAO) guidlines as to what constitutes an acceptable air safety investigation for a Level 1 state in terms of air safety.
As it stands it makes Australia’s air safety regulator and its air safety investigator appear compromised and vindictive, and leaves unanswered public policy issues about the inability or unwillingness of both bodies to tell the truth about air accidents or the diligence and competency of the air safety regulator to the public.
Ben Sandilands | Nov 03, 2012 1:28PM | EMAIL | PRINT
Documents released by the Senate inquiry into the Pel-Air crash report confirm that the pilot had no regulations or guidance for making decisions about diverting to other airstrips when the weather at Norfolk Island deteriorated en-route.
The inquiry, into Air Accident Investigations, has already heard admissions by the ATSB that it isn’t proud of its report, which failed to address critical safety issues both inside and outside the corporate jet which was performing an air ambulance charter for Careflight when it was ditched in the sea after it couldn’t make visual contact with the runway and was close to running out of fuel, on 18 November 2009.
The documents published on the inquiry web page, relate to allegations that the much delayed final report into the accident, published on 30 August, omitted relevant matters that rendered the air safety regulator, CASA, and the operator, Pel-Air, open to serious criticism for administrative failures and unsafe flying practices as revealed in a confidential and highly unfavorable CASA audit of Pel-Air, and then, through an abuse of process, framed the entire blame for the incident on the captain of the flight, Dominic James.
While the technical details concerning the crash, and the audited deficient state of the Pel-Air operation, and the suitability of its Westwind corporate jet to operate long oceanic flight stages, have been reported at length here and in some other forums, the general public interest in these matters is the competency, integrity and transparency of CASA, the air safety regulator, and the ATSB, the air safety investigator, which report to the same minister.
The committee, instigated by Senator Nick Xenophon, held a day of public and private hearings on 22 October and has now scheduled further public hearings on the 19th and 21st of November. It is provisionally expected to report its findings and recommendations by 29 November.
Commentary Most of the testimony heard by the committee to date has called for the withdrawal of the ATSB report because of factual errors, and its failure to conform to the international (ICAO) guidlines as to what constitutes an acceptable air safety investigation for a Level 1 state in terms of air safety.
As it stands it makes Australia’s air safety regulator and its air safety investigator appear compromised and vindictive, and leaves unanswered public policy issues about the inability or unwillingness of both bodies to tell the truth about air accidents or the diligence and competency of the air safety regulator to the public.
Last edited by Sarcs; 3rd Nov 2012 at 02:44.
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Senators, Blackhandi, CASA and secret squirrell activities
'K'
Careful K. Words like Lumos, Illuminate, Illuminati, Illusion or even Lucifer tend to send Blackhandi off!
Biscuit,
Biscuit, quite possibly. But what about CASA's liaison person who acts between CASA and the ATSB? Won't RW be a fall guy too?
Sarcs,
Indeed, why is Blackhandi such a long way from home? He is missing Charles and Camilla's visit at the moment! Perhaps he is in Can'tberra looking for autographs or ticking off an item on his Bucket List - Item 2: Watch robust debate between CASA and Senators and cheer for CASA!
Or perhaps he is there networking, maybe trying to hire Quinn to do some more work in PNG?
Some sources of my own who are enjoying the stage show in Canberra advise me that some CASA spooks have been integrating themselves in the audience and taking close notes of who is in attendance! So watch out Blackhandi, years worth of NCN's coming your way?
I have put one of these in the post for Blackhandi. He can wear it to the next Senate sitting!
But alas, I fear without the erudite Blackhand to guide their faltering footsteps and to light their path with the beacon of his unfailing light, they are doomed. PS, the word to get your wand light working is "Lumos"
Biscuit,
I'm guessing a GGM or exec will don the sheepskin and be asked to go 'bah bah ' as the sacrificial lamb. ATSB guy is another likely suspect
Sarcs,
In what capacity were you there and why do you seem to have such a vested interest in the proceedings??
Or perhaps he is there networking, maybe trying to hire Quinn to do some more work in PNG?
Some sources of my own who are enjoying the stage show in Canberra advise me that some CASA spooks have been integrating themselves in the audience and taking close notes of who is in attendance! So watch out Blackhandi, years worth of NCN's coming your way?
I have put one of these in the post for Blackhandi. He can wear it to the next Senate sitting!
Last edited by gobbledock; 3rd Nov 2012 at 11:36. Reason: Avoiding the Blackhandi in the Senate room
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The Bar Room Barristers put up a proposal t'uther night. That we turn up on the 19 th, 'mob handed' in bright fluero T shirts with Pony Pooh printed large on the front and back: take over the back row of seats and silently all stand up every time some ridiculous fairy story was uttered. The motion was eventually rejected due OH &S concerns of physical exhaustion and a lack of bar/toilet facilities, the motion to take our own eskies and piss in them was also rejected, (only just).
The CASA emails are damning. There is no concern for the travelling public whatsoever, its all about organisational survival and growth.
Its fascinating to learn that the AIP has no force whatsoever.
As is usual with conspiracies, they eventually unravel. The documents show that CASA was not interested in safety at all. It was interested only in avoiding any criticism that could prejudice its survival.
I would say that right about now, the senior mandarins in PM & C will be looking at this. They tend to be extremely competent and they outrank the Minister.
My guess is that CASA will be "enhanced" - that is to say broken up into a regulator and an enforcer, and the New Zealand/FAA regulations will be adopted. That would be the fastest and cheapest solution in my opinion.
The question is: will there be enough time to do this before there is a major fatal accident?
Its fascinating to learn that the AIP has no force whatsoever.
As is usual with conspiracies, they eventually unravel. The documents show that CASA was not interested in safety at all. It was interested only in avoiding any criticism that could prejudice its survival.
I would say that right about now, the senior mandarins in PM & C will be looking at this. They tend to be extremely competent and they outrank the Minister.
My guess is that CASA will be "enhanced" - that is to say broken up into a regulator and an enforcer, and the New Zealand/FAA regulations will be adopted. That would be the fastest and cheapest solution in my opinion.
The question is: will there be enough time to do this before there is a major fatal accident?
Last edited by Sunfish; 3rd Nov 2012 at 21:34.
Sarcs referred to the article by Ben Sandilands:
Absolutely! 
From the ATSB Business Plan
Our principles
We approach our work in accordance with five key principles intended to maintain trust in our organisation:
Independence: we think for ourselves
Engagement: we work with others
Rigour: we rely on evidence
Innovation: we are open to new ideas
Relevance: we make a difference
From the CASA Corporate Plan (refer CASA Values)
We perform our functions to maintain Australia’s status as a leading aviation nation
We act at all times with fairness and integrity.
We maintain the highest levels of professionalism and act with high ethical standards and without bias.
We make balanced judgements which are risk based and evidence driven. We act innovatively and with flexibility to meet our responsibilities.
Really?
The ATSB Chief Commissioner and the CASA Director of Aviation Safety may like to rethink those lofty ideals, because apart from Blackhand's views, the consensus here seems to be that they are total horse****.
As it stands it makes Australia’s air safety regulator and its air safety investigator appear compromised and vindictive, and leaves unanswered public policy issues about the inability or unwillingness of both bodies to tell the truth about air accidents or the diligence and competency of the air safety regulator to the public.
From the ATSB Business Plan
Our principles
We approach our work in accordance with five key principles intended to maintain trust in our organisation:
Independence: we think for ourselves
Engagement: we work with others
Rigour: we rely on evidence
Innovation: we are open to new ideas
Relevance: we make a difference
From the CASA Corporate Plan (refer CASA Values)
We perform our functions to maintain Australia’s status as a leading aviation nation
We act at all times with fairness and integrity.
We maintain the highest levels of professionalism and act with high ethical standards and without bias.
We make balanced judgements which are risk based and evidence driven. We act innovatively and with flexibility to meet our responsibilities.
Really?
The ATSB Chief Commissioner and the CASA Director of Aviation Safety may like to rethink those lofty ideals, because apart from Blackhand's views, the consensus here seems to be that they are total horse****.
The CASA mission statement is totally wrong. Its meaningless: "To maintain Australias status??????????"
To be of any use, a mission statement has to state who your customers are, what you are going to provide for them, and how you will know you have succeeded.
If you get that right, then the business plan follows as easily as night follows day.
To be of any use, a mission statement has to state who your customers are, what you are going to provide for them, and how you will know you have succeeded.
If you get that right, then the business plan follows as easily as night follows day.
Flight nurse nails it!
Noticed this comment on Ben's piece yesterday which I think puts a human face to the hurt that these numbnuts are inflicting, go KC there are people out there that feel your anguish!
Karen Casey
Posted November 4, 2012 at 3:49 am | Permalink
When will truth trump cover-ups that are laced with selfish intent to save ones posterior? How ridiculous to have so many broken rules in an- audit, yet almost get away with it. There is a reason for the truth that is emerging, it’s for air safety & the failure of our regulator & investigative bodies results. It has been the survivors that have been the seekers of the real deal. What a disgrace. With both our Chief Commissioners under the microscope now, the amplification of this ordeal is finally happening.
CASA & ATSB have a lot to answer for, dragging this on for selfish intent is criminal & at the least cruel to all on board. The coverup is surfacing and all will be revealed about the incompetencies of all parties involved.
How unprofessional this has all been. How disappointing in the treatment of the people who have experienced hell from impact till now with our own government bodies involved. Does our government have enough integrity to investigate the individuals involved and actually DO something about this rather than just go around in circles. To add insult, let’s just throw in the fact that the ex-Pel-Air chief pilot at the time of the incident now works as an investigator for CASA…please!
Just stop the B.S & tell the truth.
Posted November 4, 2012 at 3:49 am | Permalink
When will truth trump cover-ups that are laced with selfish intent to save ones posterior? How ridiculous to have so many broken rules in an- audit, yet almost get away with it. There is a reason for the truth that is emerging, it’s for air safety & the failure of our regulator & investigative bodies results. It has been the survivors that have been the seekers of the real deal. What a disgrace. With both our Chief Commissioners under the microscope now, the amplification of this ordeal is finally happening.
CASA & ATSB have a lot to answer for, dragging this on for selfish intent is criminal & at the least cruel to all on board. The coverup is surfacing and all will be revealed about the incompetencies of all parties involved.
How unprofessional this has all been. How disappointing in the treatment of the people who have experienced hell from impact till now with our own government bodies involved. Does our government have enough integrity to investigate the individuals involved and actually DO something about this rather than just go around in circles. To add insult, let’s just throw in the fact that the ex-Pel-Air chief pilot at the time of the incident now works as an investigator for CASA…please!
Just stop the B.S & tell the truth.