Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
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TICK TOCK
By the way is there any word on Senator X and his push to reopen the Inquiry to review the AF447 final report?
Where's that broom and where is some carpet???
Nick, keep fighting the fight. They may be able to clip your wings but at least when the first charred bodies are pulled from a burning pit you can rest well at night knowing that you tried. You're a damn champion. Too decent for Politics
TICK TOCK
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Interesting
Interesting bit of adhoc information I came across.
Rio-Paris airbus crash 'might have been prevented' if pilots had been
briefed on previous incident
John Lichfield
Paris
Tuesday 17 July 2012
A French investigating judge is examining evidence that the Rio-Paris
airbus crash might have been prevented if the pilots had been briefed on a
terrifying incident the previous year.
According to an online update (http://www.airfrance447crash.com/)
to a book on the crash, which will appear in print shortly, Air France and
Airbus failed to notify pilots about a crisis aboard a Paris to Madagascar
flight on 16 August 2008 that bore striking resemblances to the chain of
calamities which befell flight AF447 over the south Atlantic nine months later.
An American writer and aviation expert, Roger Rapoport, says the
events aboard the Air France Madagascar flight – and the successful action taken
by its pilot to prevent a crash – are now central to the Rio-Paris manslaughter
investigation which is being conducted by a French judge, Sylvie Zimmerman.
Mr Rapoport says an independent study by aviation experts sent to the
judge last week took a much tougher line on the possible criminal
responsibilities of Airbus and Air France than the inconclusive final report of
the French air accident investigation bureau, the BEA, the previous week. His
book reveals that the experts’ criticism is based partly on events aboard an
Airbus 340, AF flight 373, from Paris to Tananarive in Madagascar in August
2008.
The pilot of the Madgasacar flight lost reliable indication of his
airspeed because the recorders, or pitot tubes, had iced up. Amid heavy
turbulence he descended to 4,000 feet, turning off the instructions from the
aircraft’s computerised guidance system or ‘flight director’.
Much the same circumstances led to the crash of AF 447 in the south
Atlantic on 1 June 2009, which killed 228 passengers and crew. In that case,
however, the crew lifted the plane’s nose and made a series of other calamitous
misjudgements which led the aircraft to plunge into the ocean.
The BEA report suggested the crash was caused by a mixture of systems’
failure and pilot error. It did suggest, however, that the pilots may have been
led into error by the computerised fight director.
Air France and Airbus were placed under formal investigation for
manslaughter in March last year. Judge Zimmermann must decide whether to
recommend that criminal charges should be brought against either company or
both.
Mr Rapoport quotes a veteran French aviation expert as saying: “If Air
France and Airbus had done the right thing and notified Airbus pilots about the
specifics of this near disaster on the Madagascar bound flight, new emergency
procedures and better training certainly could have saved the lives of 228
passengers and crew…”
Jacques Rocca, a spokesman for Airbus, contacted by The Independent
today, dismissed these conclusions as “false… just plain wrong.”
He added: “To suggest that we failed to warn airlines or pilots that
flight directors are unreliable when the pitot tubes fail is absurd. All pilots
know this already.”
Mr Rapoport told the Independent: “The BEA report makes it clear that that 'the absence of any (pilot) training at high altitude in manual aeroplane handing’ and the failure of ‘feedback mechanisms’ made it impossible to apply the correct recovery
procedures. The Madagascar flight was a case-book example of how pilots should
react but the details were not circulated.”
A French lawyer who represents families of victims of the crash,
Maitre Stephane Busy, confirmed to The Independent today that the Madagascar incident formed part of the judicial inquiry. He said: “The problem is that putting the ‘flight director’ on ‘off’ is recommended but… there is no reminder on the instruments panel. Air France and Airbus knew that this could be a problem but they allowed their aircraft to continue to fly.”
Cedric Leurquin, an Air France spokesman, said the Madagascar flight
incident has been “normally analysed” and “concerned stakeholders were
informed”. He added: “For the rest… Air France…adheres faithfully to the BEA's
analyses published on July 5.”
Mr Rapoport’s book is an updated English language version of a book
published in French last year. It went online last night and will appear in a
print version shortly as “The Rio-Paris Crash; Air France 447”.
briefed on previous incident
John Lichfield
Paris
Tuesday 17 July 2012
A French investigating judge is examining evidence that the Rio-Paris
airbus crash might have been prevented if the pilots had been briefed on a
terrifying incident the previous year.
According to an online update (http://www.airfrance447crash.com/)
to a book on the crash, which will appear in print shortly, Air France and
Airbus failed to notify pilots about a crisis aboard a Paris to Madagascar
flight on 16 August 2008 that bore striking resemblances to the chain of
calamities which befell flight AF447 over the south Atlantic nine months later.
An American writer and aviation expert, Roger Rapoport, says the
events aboard the Air France Madagascar flight – and the successful action taken
by its pilot to prevent a crash – are now central to the Rio-Paris manslaughter
investigation which is being conducted by a French judge, Sylvie Zimmerman.
Mr Rapoport says an independent study by aviation experts sent to the
judge last week took a much tougher line on the possible criminal
responsibilities of Airbus and Air France than the inconclusive final report of
the French air accident investigation bureau, the BEA, the previous week. His
book reveals that the experts’ criticism is based partly on events aboard an
Airbus 340, AF flight 373, from Paris to Tananarive in Madagascar in August
2008.
The pilot of the Madgasacar flight lost reliable indication of his
airspeed because the recorders, or pitot tubes, had iced up. Amid heavy
turbulence he descended to 4,000 feet, turning off the instructions from the
aircraft’s computerised guidance system or ‘flight director’.
Much the same circumstances led to the crash of AF 447 in the south
Atlantic on 1 June 2009, which killed 228 passengers and crew. In that case,
however, the crew lifted the plane’s nose and made a series of other calamitous
misjudgements which led the aircraft to plunge into the ocean.
The BEA report suggested the crash was caused by a mixture of systems’
failure and pilot error. It did suggest, however, that the pilots may have been
led into error by the computerised fight director.
Air France and Airbus were placed under formal investigation for
manslaughter in March last year. Judge Zimmermann must decide whether to
recommend that criminal charges should be brought against either company or
both.
Mr Rapoport quotes a veteran French aviation expert as saying: “If Air
France and Airbus had done the right thing and notified Airbus pilots about the
specifics of this near disaster on the Madagascar bound flight, new emergency
procedures and better training certainly could have saved the lives of 228
passengers and crew…”
Jacques Rocca, a spokesman for Airbus, contacted by The Independent
today, dismissed these conclusions as “false… just plain wrong.”
He added: “To suggest that we failed to warn airlines or pilots that
flight directors are unreliable when the pitot tubes fail is absurd. All pilots
know this already.”
Mr Rapoport told the Independent: “The BEA report makes it clear that that 'the absence of any (pilot) training at high altitude in manual aeroplane handing’ and the failure of ‘feedback mechanisms’ made it impossible to apply the correct recovery
procedures. The Madagascar flight was a case-book example of how pilots should
react but the details were not circulated.”
A French lawyer who represents families of victims of the crash,
Maitre Stephane Busy, confirmed to The Independent today that the Madagascar incident formed part of the judicial inquiry. He said: “The problem is that putting the ‘flight director’ on ‘off’ is recommended but… there is no reminder on the instruments panel. Air France and Airbus knew that this could be a problem but they allowed their aircraft to continue to fly.”
Cedric Leurquin, an Air France spokesman, said the Madagascar flight
incident has been “normally analysed” and “concerned stakeholders were
informed”. He added: “For the rest… Air France…adheres faithfully to the BEA's
analyses published on July 5.”
Mr Rapoport’s book is an updated English language version of a book
published in French last year. It went online last night and will appear in a
print version shortly as “The Rio-Paris Crash; Air France 447”.
Last edited by gobbledock; 28th Aug 2012 at 22:46.
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He said: “The problem is that putting the ‘flight director’ on ‘off’ is recommended but… there is no reminder on the instruments panel.
Huge law suits then result.
Well the memory items for unreliable speed which the Pilots at the controls should have actioned are there plain as day.
All they had to do was 'do' them and the aeroplane and pax would still be here today.
All they had to do was 'do' them and the aeroplane and pax would still be here today.
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The trough
Albanese:
From the SMH Database
Revealed: Politicians' gifts, trips and tickets
The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age have built a searchable database showing every Federal politician's financial interests. You can explore the information by category, by keyword, by politician or any combination of the three.
Well - Mr. Albanese, GA certainly don't think much of you - not even a neck-tie!!
From the SMH Database
Revealed: Politicians' gifts, trips and tickets
The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age have built a searchable database showing every Federal politician's financial interests. You can explore the information by category, by keyword, by politician or any combination of the three.
- Origin: Sydney; Dest: Europe; Upgrade: economy > business; Travel Date: 2011-07-10; Details: On 10 July and 31 July 2011 I accepted upgrades from Emirates travelling unofficially to and from Europe
- Origin: Sydney; Dest: Singapore; Upgrade: economy > business; Sponsor: Qantas; Details: Upgrade given on flights to and from Singapore. Upgrade given by Qantas.
- On 12 October 2011 I was given a box of chocolates from Board of Airlines Representatives association.
- On 8 September I was presented with a cheese knife by the RAAA.
- A small model A380 plane from Emirates.
- 06/06/2011 Presented with a tie at the IATA Conference in Singapore.
- 16/05/2011 Was presented with a set of coasters from the Transport Workers union.
- 12/02/2011 tie from president of IATA.
- 21/12/2010 iPad from Qantas (being used by my Sydney office).
- 24/11/10 model aircraft from Tiger Airlines.
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This little piggy went to the market........
Wow. The Minister for Bad Teeth has certainly been indulging a little in the trough! What did Mel Brooks say in History Of The World - "It's good to be the king".
One question though, was the 'cheese knife' gift actually a 'swiss cheese aka James Reason knife' or was it a 'pony pooh knife' used for cutting through the endless amount of ****e he dribbles?
One question though, was the 'cheese knife' gift actually a 'swiss cheese aka James Reason knife' or was it a 'pony pooh knife' used for cutting through the endless amount of ****e he dribbles?
Last edited by gobbledock; 31st Aug 2012 at 08:44. Reason: Almost tripped over the Elephant in the room, thanks for the warning Biscuit!!
Don't worry, Gillard will protect you (apparently)
Gillard hits back at Rinehart over mining comments | News | Business Spectator
"proper Australian wages and decent working conditions" 
not in the Airline industry ...
Gillard hits back at Rinehart over mining comments | News | Business Spectator
"It's not the Australian way to toss people $2, to toss them a gold coin, and then ask them to work for a day." Ms Gillard said.
In a video posted on the Sydney Mining Club's website on Wednesday, Ms Rinehart said Australians should not be complacent about mining investment when African workers were toiling for $2 a day.
"We support proper Australian wages and decent working conditions," Ms Gillard said.
In a video posted on the Sydney Mining Club's website on Wednesday, Ms Rinehart said Australians should not be complacent about mining investment when African workers were toiling for $2 a day.
"We support proper Australian wages and decent working conditions," Ms Gillard said.
not in the Airline industry ...
Last edited by John Citizen; 5th Sep 2012 at 08:47.
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Gina Rheinhart SHOULD fukc off to Africa and try doing business there.
Pi#s on her.
Last edited by gobbledock; 6th Sep 2012 at 04:09.
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There are plenty of other companies willing to dig up our mineral wealth and leave us a quarry
The States get Royalties from those who dig those minerals up.
Gillard reckons that wealth belongs to ALL Australians in spite of the constitution and is bunging on a tax over and above those Royalties to redistribute that wealth to the PBNWILV thus imposing extra burdens on people like Gina.
Except for the fact she owns Daddy's land under which those minerals lay, she may well spend her wealth in Africa. That would be good for all us Aussies no doubt??
Perhaps this is why so many projects are being "deferred" for the time being?
PBNWILV- poor bloody non working idiot Labor voters.
Just my take on the situation, but I'm probably wrong as usual.
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GFR #404 - I couldn't help noticing the similarities between us and the pearling industry. Big money, lowering pay and conditions, inexperience, over stretched training resources, un managed threats........the list goes on.
All reflected in the Norfolk ditching. The list is indeed long and the Norfolk event is about to get swept under the flying carpet in the Ministers office. Enough already, enough.
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Time Gentlemen, PLEASE.
One day there is going to be a major accident on Australian soil; you or your family could be on board.
It will probably be a preventable accident. It could have been prevented by you.
The Regulator is an international and domestic laughing stock, you know this.
McCormick interview.
The regulations a spiders web supporting anything the regulator want's them to support, you know this.
Norfolk Ditching.
The ATSB has become nothing more than the PR voice of the Minister, you know this.
Dolan interview.
The Air traffic control system is slowly disintegrating beyond the point of no return, you know this.
It's time Gentlemen; if the Norfolk Island accident, the Air France fatal or any of the recently published incidents don't convince you of that; then despite the rhetoric and white papers, the blood will be on your hands. Then, it will be truly a vote of conscience.
Selah.
Great work - 4 Corners – ABC.
It will probably be a preventable accident. It could have been prevented by you.
The Regulator is an international and domestic laughing stock, you know this.
McCormick interview.
The regulations a spiders web supporting anything the regulator want's them to support, you know this.
Norfolk Ditching.
The ATSB has become nothing more than the PR voice of the Minister, you know this.
Dolan interview.
The Air traffic control system is slowly disintegrating beyond the point of no return, you know this.
It's time Gentlemen; if the Norfolk Island accident, the Air France fatal or any of the recently published incidents don't convince you of that; then despite the rhetoric and white papers, the blood will be on your hands. Then, it will be truly a vote of conscience.
Selah.
Great work - 4 Corners – ABC.
Last edited by Kharon; 9th Sep 2012 at 21:44.
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I strongly urge anyone contemplating a measured response to this topic to read the novel, Power without Glory, by Frank Hardy. This book was banned at one point by, (guess who), because it impinged sensitivities. It is as relevant today as it was when written.
The "buck stops" somewhere.
PS, it's a good entertaining read to boot.
The "buck stops" somewhere.
PS, it's a good entertaining read to boot.
Give truth, and air safety, a chance
Yeah good catch Frank and it brings to bear that..."the more things change the more they stay the same"...or as one wiseman said:
Since this in the Senate inquiry thread and "K" is basically making a plea for sanity to prevail in the chookhouse, it might be time to reflect on this article from Sandilands, as it is now relegated to the archives of obscurity..
"In a society where spin and media manipulation perpetuates myths about airline safety and keeps a lid on disclosures of unsafe practices the commitment of independent politician Nick Xenophon to his proposed Senate Inquiry into pilot training standards might trigger some long overdue reforms.
As Senator Xenophon pointed out in his address to the Australian and International Pilots Association recently, Australia is tolerating what the US now finds intolerable, which is the placing of pilots with as little as 200 hours experience in the right hand or first officer seat of airliners.
It is a madness that needs to be hauled up sharp in this country. It requires a revaluation of piloting skills and safety cultures. There are a number of elements to this controversy. One of them is the corruption of airline safety ‘cultures’ into ones where pilots increasingly think like accountants or shareholders rather than professional pilots required to conform to some very serious rules about what defines safe flight, including loss of control and upset situations, fuel and weather considerations and separation in uncontrolled air space.
Another is the popular insistence by airlines, here and elsewhere, on the notion that meeting the requirements of airworthiness directives, or maintenance intervals, or tick-the-boxes flying courses for flying skills delivered by outside trainers, all represent world’s best practice.
This is a popular lie. All the carriers are doing is meeting the minimum legal standards, or even delegating the achievement of those standards to external enterprises they have no control over. The standards required in these cases are not the highest available, they are the cheapest legally available standards, and in the case of regulatory matters like airworthiness directives, they are often the end result of ‘consultations’ between the carriers, the regulators and equipment manufacturers which involve the commercial consequences for airlines.
Airbus has been vocal on the topic diminishing flying skills, yet has been firmly challenged by the French accident investigators over its history in handling piloting issues where unreliable airspeed warnings are generated by ice clogging external air speed probes. Boeing infamously dragged the chain over 737 rudder control failures that confronted pilots with a bewildering and potentially disastrous problem for years, indeed, it even slandered the pilots who died in struggling to save several stricken jets before the truth about a lethal design error finally came out.
But back to a tighter focus. Xenophon has gone for pilot training standards in this country, which are in crisis, and for inadequate incident reporting procedures.
There is more than enough in both to keep a Senate Inquiry very usefully occupied.
Xenophon has called for Alan Joyce, as then CEO of Jetstar, to explain himself over the July 2007 botched missed approach to Melbourne of an A320. Was Joyce ignorant of his obligations to the law, or did he chose to ignore them? In this incident the airline he was responsible for broke the law on the reporting of safety incidents, and only disclosed the true situation when the ATSB felt compelled to act on a media report by myself, one and half months later. After which the ATSB produced a damning report, yet failed to refer Jetstar to the Commonwealth public prosecutor.
The ATSB is a world class technical investigator that is too timid to refer breaches of the law on failures to report serious operational incidents involving major carriers. Most recently, it sat on its hands while Tiger Airways chose to ignore its legal obligations concerning an aileron failure in one of its A320s because Tiger had decided the Australian laws didn’t matter.
It has a habit of making excuses for the airlines, although not in the case of the Lockhart River disaster in 2005, in which it nailed CASA for lack of appropriate action against a carrier it knew was dangerous.
Which raises an important issue for the Senate to consider. When the safety regulator CASA finds evidence that an operator is unsafe, does it not have an obligation to tell the travelling public, rather than do nothing to warn them, allowing an unsafe operation to continue flying in that particular case until it killed 15 people?
In the Crikey story linked above and published yesterday, reference is made to a Qantaslink incident at Sydney Airport on Boxing Day 2008, which was also covered by Plane Talking in June.
The ATSB report is woefully evasive in its accounting for this astonishing incident. A Qantaslink turbo-prop, with 50 seats, nearly stalls twice in 10 seconds on approach to Sydney airport, during which a first officer with limited experience on the type disobeys an instruction by the captain to go around rather than try and complete an ‘unstable’ approach to the runway.
The report fails to explain how standards at Qantaslink could be so pathetic as to allow this situation to arise. It fails to detail what then happened in the Qantaslink management of its safety standards. It doesn’t tell us what submissions Qantaslink made, or what submissions the CASA safety regulator made. The final report is only released after the wording has been read and passed by the airline and the safety investigator, although it can ignore objections by the parties being investigated.
The public just doesn’t get any inkling as to what really happened.
In the US the NTSB, the ATSB equivalent, would have held public hearings into the Qantaslink incident, and the airline management would have been cross examined as to how such an unacceptable situation had occurred.
The public would not have been subjected to spin about our wonderful safety standards. There is nothing wonderful about a Qantas turbo-prop being put in peril twice in 10 seconds by the flight standards that it is the obligation of the company to uphold and administer.
This proposed inquiry is of critical importance to all air travellers in Australia."
So did the Senate Inquiry make one iota of difference??
GB Shaw: If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.
"In a society where spin and media manipulation perpetuates myths about airline safety and keeps a lid on disclosures of unsafe practices the commitment of independent politician Nick Xenophon to his proposed Senate Inquiry into pilot training standards might trigger some long overdue reforms.
As Senator Xenophon pointed out in his address to the Australian and International Pilots Association recently, Australia is tolerating what the US now finds intolerable, which is the placing of pilots with as little as 200 hours experience in the right hand or first officer seat of airliners.
It is a madness that needs to be hauled up sharp in this country. It requires a revaluation of piloting skills and safety cultures. There are a number of elements to this controversy. One of them is the corruption of airline safety ‘cultures’ into ones where pilots increasingly think like accountants or shareholders rather than professional pilots required to conform to some very serious rules about what defines safe flight, including loss of control and upset situations, fuel and weather considerations and separation in uncontrolled air space.
Another is the popular insistence by airlines, here and elsewhere, on the notion that meeting the requirements of airworthiness directives, or maintenance intervals, or tick-the-boxes flying courses for flying skills delivered by outside trainers, all represent world’s best practice.
This is a popular lie. All the carriers are doing is meeting the minimum legal standards, or even delegating the achievement of those standards to external enterprises they have no control over. The standards required in these cases are not the highest available, they are the cheapest legally available standards, and in the case of regulatory matters like airworthiness directives, they are often the end result of ‘consultations’ between the carriers, the regulators and equipment manufacturers which involve the commercial consequences for airlines.
Airbus has been vocal on the topic diminishing flying skills, yet has been firmly challenged by the French accident investigators over its history in handling piloting issues where unreliable airspeed warnings are generated by ice clogging external air speed probes. Boeing infamously dragged the chain over 737 rudder control failures that confronted pilots with a bewildering and potentially disastrous problem for years, indeed, it even slandered the pilots who died in struggling to save several stricken jets before the truth about a lethal design error finally came out.
But back to a tighter focus. Xenophon has gone for pilot training standards in this country, which are in crisis, and for inadequate incident reporting procedures.
There is more than enough in both to keep a Senate Inquiry very usefully occupied.
Xenophon has called for Alan Joyce, as then CEO of Jetstar, to explain himself over the July 2007 botched missed approach to Melbourne of an A320. Was Joyce ignorant of his obligations to the law, or did he chose to ignore them? In this incident the airline he was responsible for broke the law on the reporting of safety incidents, and only disclosed the true situation when the ATSB felt compelled to act on a media report by myself, one and half months later. After which the ATSB produced a damning report, yet failed to refer Jetstar to the Commonwealth public prosecutor.
The ATSB is a world class technical investigator that is too timid to refer breaches of the law on failures to report serious operational incidents involving major carriers. Most recently, it sat on its hands while Tiger Airways chose to ignore its legal obligations concerning an aileron failure in one of its A320s because Tiger had decided the Australian laws didn’t matter.
It has a habit of making excuses for the airlines, although not in the case of the Lockhart River disaster in 2005, in which it nailed CASA for lack of appropriate action against a carrier it knew was dangerous.
Which raises an important issue for the Senate to consider. When the safety regulator CASA finds evidence that an operator is unsafe, does it not have an obligation to tell the travelling public, rather than do nothing to warn them, allowing an unsafe operation to continue flying in that particular case until it killed 15 people?
In the Crikey story linked above and published yesterday, reference is made to a Qantaslink incident at Sydney Airport on Boxing Day 2008, which was also covered by Plane Talking in June.
The ATSB report is woefully evasive in its accounting for this astonishing incident. A Qantaslink turbo-prop, with 50 seats, nearly stalls twice in 10 seconds on approach to Sydney airport, during which a first officer with limited experience on the type disobeys an instruction by the captain to go around rather than try and complete an ‘unstable’ approach to the runway.
The report fails to explain how standards at Qantaslink could be so pathetic as to allow this situation to arise. It fails to detail what then happened in the Qantaslink management of its safety standards. It doesn’t tell us what submissions Qantaslink made, or what submissions the CASA safety regulator made. The final report is only released after the wording has been read and passed by the airline and the safety investigator, although it can ignore objections by the parties being investigated.
The public just doesn’t get any inkling as to what really happened.
In the US the NTSB, the ATSB equivalent, would have held public hearings into the Qantaslink incident, and the airline management would have been cross examined as to how such an unacceptable situation had occurred.
The public would not have been subjected to spin about our wonderful safety standards. There is nothing wonderful about a Qantas turbo-prop being put in peril twice in 10 seconds by the flight standards that it is the obligation of the company to uphold and administer.
This proposed inquiry is of critical importance to all air travellers in Australia."
So did the Senate Inquiry make one iota of difference??
Last edited by Sarcs; 10th Sep 2012 at 22:09.
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Plush pile?
All reflected in the Norfolk ditching. The list is indeed long and the
Norfolk event is about to get swept under the flying carpet in the Ministers
office
Norfolk event is about to get swept under the flying carpet in the Ministers
office
"Soiled skies for all".
Last edited by gobbledock; 11th Sep 2012 at 04:10. Reason: Avoiding the soilage and elephants in the Ministers room
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Next estimates hearings
Supplementary budget estimates will be held from 15 to 18 October 2012.
The link below takes you to a –'download'-- button' which, if clicked will provide a summary of the petition and survey conducted through Pprune last year.
Should you wish to have an input to the industry you work in, get busy. Help is available at PAIN_NET0012@YAHOO. com.au
The link below takes you to a –'download'-- button' which, if clicked will provide a summary of the petition and survey conducted through Pprune last year.
Should you wish to have an input to the industry you work in, get busy. Help is available at PAIN_NET0012@YAHOO. com.au
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Often licked