Virgin Australia Cadetship 2012 & 2013
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Kelpie,
If cadets make it to the VAA (domestic) jet fleet within the 3 year span of the newly minted EBA they will be paid exactly what any other FOs get. By virtue of not outlining a pay scale specifically for cadets they get paid the EJet/737 wage. Potentially minus 15k in first year due endo cost.
If cadets make it to the VAA (domestic) jet fleet within the 3 year span of the newly minted EBA they will be paid exactly what any other FOs get. By virtue of not outlining a pay scale specifically for cadets they get paid the EJet/737 wage. Potentially minus 15k in first year due endo cost.
My comments were surrounding their status as employees of VA during the 1 year Cadetship and the following 3 year period flying ATR72 aircraft. These are the facts as I understand them:
Whilst on course in Adelaide they are currently employees of Virgin Australia with full staff benefits. Job Title: Cadet Pilot.
When they go to Skywest to operate the ATR 72 they SHOULD still be employees of Virgin Australia that are contracted out to Skywest. The point being is that under an arrangement such as this (ie secondment) the EBA of the employer should prevail. Under a secondment arrangement Skywest IS NOT the legal employer. The cadet will not be an employee of Skywest, they will be a secondee and should continue to be paid by Virgin Australia.
All pilot recruitment should be under the new EBA...without exception. This is the same situation with Jetstar putting cadets onto individual group contracts and now forced to put them under the Jetstar EBA.
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 11th Apr 2013 at 08:50.
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I wonder what will happen when Skywest becomes part of the group (like qantas/Jetstar)?
On completion of the Cadetship maybe the cadets will have to resign from VA and lose all of their service and benefits/seniority to take up employment with Skywest..... Then in three years time resign from Skywest and lose all benefits/seniority again to retake up employment with Virgin.
I will watch with great interest how this one is played.
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The kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 11th Apr 2013 at 11:25.
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I wonder what will happen when Skywest becomes part of the group (like qantas/Jetstar)?
Will that change anything?
Last edited by TequilaMockingbird; 11th Apr 2013 at 12:00.
Under the Skywest EBA, only skywest pilots can fly skywest aircraft so your point only works on the virgin side of the fence Kelpie!
The kicker with that is they cannot outsource skywest flights to another AOC.
I would hazard a guess that when the EBA comes up for renewal there won't be a scope clause in there.......
I dont see any reference to tail colour in that document neville! 
Just because it has red paint on it now rather than blue doesnt change 1 iota of their certified agreement!
You are correct in saying 'anyone else' can work for skywest if they are employed under the skywest EBA. Exactly what i was saying before......
Just because it has red paint on it now rather than blue doesnt change 1 iota of their certified agreement!
You are correct in saying 'anyone else' can work for skywest if they are employed under the skywest EBA. Exactly what i was saying before......
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It will be great for morale if the cadet ATR seat warmers are being paid significantly more (I.e. jetpay) than the other ATR direct entry FOs. I seriously doubt any cadets will be paid 'Virgin' 737 or ejet rates - they'll be paid as per the current Skywest EBA or the future Virgin Australia Regional Airlines EBA.
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A bit of digging has produced some possible answers:
Existing cadets to be re-employed by the existing Skywest business with whatever they rename/rebrand the business to.
Future cadet courses will be run by the existing Skywest business with whatever they rename/rebrand the business to.
Future Virgin Australia cadets will only be so in brand name only, really they will be cadets of the existing Skywest business.
Future 'Virgin Australia Cadets' will not be employed by the mainline domestic 737/ejet business.
The setup between the existing mainline business and the existing Skywest business will be similar to the arrangement between Qantas Group and Eastern and Sunstate except that where the qantas subsidiaries are branded as Qantaslink, Skywest will be branded either as simply 'Virgin Australia' to portray depth to the brand or something like 'Virgin Australia Regional', similar enough to the main brand.
It is important to note that whilst for marketing purposes the branding suggests one big organisation the legal arrangements provide a very distinct separation between the business affairs, importantly 2 pilot groups with a completely different remuneration structure. A gameplan straight out of the Qantas / oldmeadow play book.
Watch what happens at Qlink over the next 12-18 months and you will have a crystal ball with what will happen at Skywest over the next 3-5 years.
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The Kelpie
Existing cadets to be re-employed by the existing Skywest business with whatever they rename/rebrand the business to.
Future cadet courses will be run by the existing Skywest business with whatever they rename/rebrand the business to.
Future Virgin Australia cadets will only be so in brand name only, really they will be cadets of the existing Skywest business.
Future 'Virgin Australia Cadets' will not be employed by the mainline domestic 737/ejet business.
The setup between the existing mainline business and the existing Skywest business will be similar to the arrangement between Qantas Group and Eastern and Sunstate except that where the qantas subsidiaries are branded as Qantaslink, Skywest will be branded either as simply 'Virgin Australia' to portray depth to the brand or something like 'Virgin Australia Regional', similar enough to the main brand.
It is important to note that whilst for marketing purposes the branding suggests one big organisation the legal arrangements provide a very distinct separation between the business affairs, importantly 2 pilot groups with a completely different remuneration structure. A gameplan straight out of the Qantas / oldmeadow play book.
Watch what happens at Qlink over the next 12-18 months and you will have a crystal ball with what will happen at Skywest over the next 3-5 years.
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The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 12th Apr 2013 at 22:25.
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Kelpie, I really hope you're wrong. Unfortunately, I can see it playing out just like you predicted 
The FAQ page on the Virgin website sort of covers this (unless this is referring to Skywest's jets):
Am I bonded for a period of time?
Following an offer of a permanent role post training you will work for Virgin Australia in partnership with SkyWest and will be bonded for three years. Should you be successful in gaining a role on the Jet operation with Virgin Australia after this time you will be bonded for an additional three years.
Future 'Virgin Australia Cadets' will not be employed by the mainline domestic 737/ejet business.
Am I bonded for a period of time?
Following an offer of a permanent role post training you will work for Virgin Australia in partnership with SkyWest and will be bonded for three years. Should you be successful in gaining a role on the Jet operation with Virgin Australia after this time you will be bonded for an additional three years.
Last edited by TequilaMockingbird; 13th Apr 2013 at 04:36.
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Jet X
You seem to be more in the know than I. Perhaps you could find out what type of Seniority number the cadets have now whilst Cadets at Flight Training Adelaide. They do have one!!
The individuals are, I am reliably informed employees of Virgin Australia (Job Title: Cadet Pilot) and have been for some months now (prior to the Skywest Acquisition), they have staff travel privileges, other staff benefits and have a seniority number. Other than the pilot employee group, What other employee groups have seniority??
On what basis has the seniority number been issued? Have they been employed as a member of the pilot group?
The seniority system flows on from, and is a key inclusion of the EBA so it logically follows that it is possible that their appointment may have been made under the current EBA but at a pay scale that was not contemplated by the EBA when it was drafted and agreed upon. Neither has an amendment been signed off since to my information.
Without an official change to the EBA( and importantly cadets are not a feature if the new EBA that has been voted up) it certainly appears by definition that these appointments may have been made in breach of the current EBA.
I would think that the AFAP know more than they are letting on as there is no way VA could introduce these roles into the company in the most public of ways as they have without the AFAP being aware of the arrangements and having already asked the appropriate questions.
On an earlier post it was stated that the Skywest EBA expires at the end of the year. If this is the case then if Cadets are to be paid at a reduced salary compared to FO as has been alluded to earlier on this thread then accommodation of the cadet roles will need to feature in the negotiations. As per my arguments in relation to the Jetstar Cadetship - if the company feels them confident to trust them in the right hand seat of an RPT ATR72 there should be no pay differential between the graduated cadet and a direct entry FO.
This approach will remove the financial advantage of employing Cadets, as it has done at Jetstar.
Soon enough cadetships will return to their original format where these are awarded to a chosen few to supplement experienced crews rather than being an accountancy revenue stream and way of reducing crewing costs.
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The Kelpie
You seem to be more in the know than I. Perhaps you could find out what type of Seniority number the cadets have now whilst Cadets at Flight Training Adelaide. They do have one!!
The individuals are, I am reliably informed employees of Virgin Australia (Job Title: Cadet Pilot) and have been for some months now (prior to the Skywest Acquisition), they have staff travel privileges, other staff benefits and have a seniority number. Other than the pilot employee group, What other employee groups have seniority??
On what basis has the seniority number been issued? Have they been employed as a member of the pilot group?
The seniority system flows on from, and is a key inclusion of the EBA so it logically follows that it is possible that their appointment may have been made under the current EBA but at a pay scale that was not contemplated by the EBA when it was drafted and agreed upon. Neither has an amendment been signed off since to my information.
Without an official change to the EBA( and importantly cadets are not a feature if the new EBA that has been voted up) it certainly appears by definition that these appointments may have been made in breach of the current EBA.
I would think that the AFAP know more than they are letting on as there is no way VA could introduce these roles into the company in the most public of ways as they have without the AFAP being aware of the arrangements and having already asked the appropriate questions.
On an earlier post it was stated that the Skywest EBA expires at the end of the year. If this is the case then if Cadets are to be paid at a reduced salary compared to FO as has been alluded to earlier on this thread then accommodation of the cadet roles will need to feature in the negotiations. As per my arguments in relation to the Jetstar Cadetship - if the company feels them confident to trust them in the right hand seat of an RPT ATR72 there should be no pay differential between the graduated cadet and a direct entry FO.
This approach will remove the financial advantage of employing Cadets, as it has done at Jetstar.
Soon enough cadetships will return to their original format where these are awarded to a chosen few to supplement experienced crews rather than being an accountancy revenue stream and way of reducing crewing costs.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 14th Apr 2013 at 23:10.
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Soon enough cadetships will return to their original format where these are
awarded to a chosen few to supplement experienced crews rather than being a
accountancy revenue stream and way of reducing crewing costs.
Kelpie virtually led the charge against the abomination that was the Jetstar Cadet Scam.
Hopefully VA sees the need for Cadets in a different light.
Hopefully!
Hopefully VA sees the need for Cadets in a different light.
Hopefully!
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If you are certain they have a seniority number now, I would hazard a guess
that it would be for Skywest. Are you sure they are not confusing their "payroll or staff number" with a seniority number ?
that it would be for Skywest. Are you sure they are not confusing their "payroll or staff number" with a seniority number ?
Given the amount of FO sitting around waiting to start line training, some I know have been waiting 8+ months why would there be a need for more cadets if Skywest can't even train current crews? Would this mean any cadet would jump ahead of a direct entry FO?
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Another early morning on the East Coast!
Heard an interesting rumour yesterday, totally unsubstantiated as yet but this is a rumour network!!
It seems that following the acquisition of Skywest, Virgin Australia may have reviewed their recruitment needs in relation to the timing and/or continuation of the Cadet program.
One can only speculate given that this is, at this stage, only a rumour but I would think it would include:
The mining boom seems to have peaked and is now contracting following decisions by major industry players not to proceed with certain projects in Australia. FIFO market may not expand as originally predicted.
Identification that there are sufficient, experienced pilots in the Skywest holding file to satisfy on-going recruitment needs based on availability of Training Captains (or lack of).
Concerns within the 'Skywest AOC' and those legally responsible for it over the abilities of Cadet graduates compared to the tried and tested 'GA experienced' route
Implications and additional requirements to be incorporated into the Operations Manual of having extremely low time pilots flying into regional airports and the additional risk associated with it.
Concerns that Virgin Australia will suffer embarrassment and be forced to pick up the tab for Cadet's training costs should the current use of VETFEE Help funding for the program be exposed as illegal.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Heard an interesting rumour yesterday, totally unsubstantiated as yet but this is a rumour network!!
It seems that following the acquisition of Skywest, Virgin Australia may have reviewed their recruitment needs in relation to the timing and/or continuation of the Cadet program.
One can only speculate given that this is, at this stage, only a rumour but I would think it would include:
The mining boom seems to have peaked and is now contracting following decisions by major industry players not to proceed with certain projects in Australia. FIFO market may not expand as originally predicted.
Identification that there are sufficient, experienced pilots in the Skywest holding file to satisfy on-going recruitment needs based on availability of Training Captains (or lack of).
Concerns within the 'Skywest AOC' and those legally responsible for it over the abilities of Cadet graduates compared to the tried and tested 'GA experienced' route
Implications and additional requirements to be incorporated into the Operations Manual of having extremely low time pilots flying into regional airports and the additional risk associated with it.
Concerns that Virgin Australia will suffer embarrassment and be forced to pick up the tab for Cadet's training costs should the current use of VETFEE Help funding for the program be exposed as illegal.
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Last edited by The Kelpie; 17th Jun 2013 at 09:55.
